Rapture Ready

[Jerry Shugart]

Ok, first let's clarify your time line because I don't know what order you have the events in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the timeline I get from what you've said so far:

1. The saved disappear (rapture)
2. The tribulation
3. The unsaved are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

No, at the end of the age the angels will gather out the unsaved for destruction:

"the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt.13:37-43).​

You have failed to prove that anything which I said is in error. All you have proved is the fact that you are unable to grasp what I wrote.

 

[Daniel1769]

No, at the end of the age the angels will gather out the unsaved for destruction:

"the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt.13:37-43).​

You have failed to prove that anything which I said is in error. All you have proved is the fact that you are unable to grasp what I wrote.

You said the saved are raptured before the tribulation, then the unsaved are taken away and the saved left. I'm asking HOW the saved are both raptured before the tribulation AND left when the unsaved are allegedly removed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You said the saved are raptured before the tribulation, then the unsaved are taken away and the saved left. I'm asking HOW the saved are both raptured before the tribulation AND left when the unsaved are allegedly removed.

i will go through this again with you. Let us look at the Lord's words here from the 24th chapter of Matthew:

"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:38-41).​

These words of the Lord Jesus were in answer to His disciples' question here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).​

At the end of the age it will be the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will be left:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt.13:37-43).​

So we can understand that at Matthew 24:38-41 it is the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will remain.

That is the exact opposite of what will happen at the rapture because then it will be the righteous who will be taken and the unrighteous who will be left.

That proves that the coming of the Lord Jesus as described in the 24th chapter of Matthews has nothing to do with the rapture!

Can you understand that? If you have any questions about it I will be happy to answer your questions.

After that I will explain why the rapture must occur before the great tribulation.

Thanks!

 

[Daniel1769]

i will go through this again with you. Let us look at the Lord's words here from the 24th chapter of Matthew:

"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:38-41).​

These words of the Lord Jesus were in answer to His disciples' question here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).​

At the end of the age it will be the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will be left:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt.13:37-43).​

So we can understand that at Matthew 24:38-41 it is the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will remain.

That is the exact opposite of what will happen at the rapture because then it will be the righteous who will be taken and the unrighteous who will be left.

That proves that the coming of the Lord Jesus as described in the 24th chapter of Matthews has nothing to do with the rapture!

Can you understand that? If you have any questions about it I will be happy to answer your questions.

After that I will explain why the rapture must occur before the great tribulation.

Thanks!

If the righteous are taken at the rapture, then how are they left when the unrighteous are removed? I don't know how to phrase this question any differently.

You're saying the unrighteous will be removed and the righteous remain. But then the righteous are removed and the unrighteous remain.

I have 7 apples and 7 oranges. I'll eat the apples, and I'll just have oranges left. But then I'll eat the oranges and just have apples left. This is what it looks like you're saying.

 

[everready]

The 'Rapture' is mostly new age wishful thinking, which has led to nothing but false prophets and Christians making fools of themselves.

When the End Times approach, ever Christian worth their salt will know it- and one would be wise not to go off into the hills looking for a clear spot to assume upward

The rapture doctrine goes well beyond new age thinking the rapture doctrine was a product of the counter reformation at The Council of Trent..

A Counter-Reformation

In 1545, the Catholic Church convened one of its most famous councils in history, which took place north of Rome in a city called Trent. The Council of Trent actually continued for three sessions, ending in 1563. One of the main purposes of this Council was for Catholics to plan a counterattack against Martin Luther and the Protestants. Thus the Council of Trent became a center for Rome’s Counter-Reformation. Up to this point, Rome’s main method of attack had been largely frontal—the open burning of Bibles and of heretics. Yet this warfare only confirmed in the minds of Protestants the conviction that Papal Rome was indeed the Beast which would “make war with the saints” (Revelation 13:7). Therefore a new tactic was needed, something less obvious. This is where the Jesuits come in.

On August 15, 1534, Ignatius Loyola (in the title picture) founded a secretive Catholic order called the Society of Jesus, also known as the Jesuits. The Jesuits definitely have a dark history of intrigue and sedition, that’s why they were expelled from Portugal (1759), France (1764), Spain (1767), Naples (1767), and Russia (1820). “Jesuit priests have been known throughout history as the most wicked political arm of the Roman Catholic Church. Edmond Paris, in his scholarly work, The Secret History of the Jesuits, reveals and documents much of this information.”4 At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church gave the Jesuits the specific assignment of destroying Protestantism and bringing people back to the Mother Church. This was to be done not only through the Inquisition and through torture, but also through theology.

http://continuingcounterreformation.blogspot.com/2008/12/jesuitical-futurism-left-behind.html


everready

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If the righteous are taken at the rapture, then how are they left when the unrighteous are removed? I don't know how to phrase this question any differently.

First of all, I noticed that you did not even attempt to prove that anything which I said in my last post to you is in error. So do you agree with what I wrote?

Now to answer your question, after the rapture the gospel of the kingdom will be preached:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Mt.24:14,21).​

There will be a whole new generation of believers who will be on the earth at that time.

Again, I proved that the coming of the Lord Jesus described in the 24th chapter of Matthews has nothing to do with the rapture. And you did not even attempt to prove anything which I said is in error.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The rapture doctrine goes well beyond new age thinking the rapture doctrine was a product of the counter reformation at The Council of Trent..

No, the rapture doctrine of the dispensationalists is based only on the Scriptures and nothing else.

 

[musterion]

Then how do you explain that after the catching up of the saints there will be "elect" on the earth during the great tribulation:?

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Mt.24:21-22).​

Thanks!

Answer: God will once again be dealing with Israel as Israel, and from the very stones He can raise up children for Himself if He needs to.

 

[Danoh]

If the righteous are taken at the rapture, then how are they left when the unrighteous are removed? I don't know how to phrase this question any differently.

You're saying the unrighteous will be removed and the righteous remain. But then the righteous are removed and the unrighteous remain.

I have 7 apples and 7 oranges. I'll eat the apples, and I'll just have oranges left. But then I'll eat the oranges and just have apples left. This is what it looks like you're saying.

Nope, to use your example, properly, Jerry is saying there are 7 apples and an apple tree. And 7 oranges and and orange tree.

Guess what those two trees will continue to produce long after those 7 of each have been eaten?

Duh-uh

Well, at least you got the 7 right :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Answer: God will once again be dealing with Israel as Israel, and from the very stones He can raise up children for Himself if He needs to.

OK, I can agree with that.

Thanks!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Mt.24:14,21).​

There will be a whole new generation of believers who will be on the earth at that time.

.

So who preaches it.

You say it is preached by Jews?

How did the Jews get saved to be able to preach it?

If you say they were saved before the "rapture" then they were left behind.

They could not be saved after the Christians have gone.

Can you explain any of it?

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


LA

 

[musterion]

If the righteous are taken at the rapture, then how are they left when the unrighteous are removed? I don't know how to phrase this question any differently.

Hold on just a second.

Ever considered the possibility of two distinct and separate groups of righteous people, one existing here and now, the other existing then?

I have 7 apples and 7 oranges. I'll eat the apples, and I'll just have oranges left. But then I'll eat the oranges and just have apples left. This is what it looks like you're saying.

At the moment, God has a bushel basket of apples, oranges, grapes, bananas, peaches, plums, kumquat, papayas, pineapple and all other fruits of the earth. Someday He's going to take that basket home.

Later, He will have a peck of olives, just as He did throughout most of the O.T. and into the early N.T. period.

Both are His fruit; both are His through Christ and He loves both. But each basket has a distinct purpose in His dealings with man, so both baskets are kept separate.

Does that make sense?

 

[musterion]

Personally, I'm an apricot.

 

[Daniel1769]

First of all, I noticed that you did not even attempt to prove that anything which I said in my last post to you is in error. So do you agree with what I wrote?

Now to answer your question, after the rapture the gospel of the kingdom will be preached:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Mt.24:14,21).​

There will be a whole new generation of believers who will be on the earth at that time.

Again, I proved that the coming of the Lord Jesus described in the 24th chapter of Matthews has nothing to do with the rapture. And you did not even attempt to prove anything which I said is in error.

Ok. You're in error because the rapture in the elect being gathered from the earth to meet the Lord in the air. That's what is described in Matt. 24. There is no "disappearing" of Christians in the Bible. That's Hollywood.

Your entire doctrine is extremely convoluted because it isn't true. Revelation lays out the order of events, and it is clear with the rest of the NT, that the rapture is before the tribulation. You've still shown absolutely no verses that say the rapture is before the Tribulation. You're stringing together different verses from different books, and using Greek dictionaries to try to make it work. Matthew 24 tells the story. Revelation tells the story. Mark 13 tells the story. You don't need to go all over the NT to try to piece it together, unless you're trying to make it say something that it doesn't say.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Revelation lays out the order of events, and it is clear with the rest of the NT, that the rapture is before the tribulation.

That is what I have been saying the whole time. I am glad that you finally see the truth.

 

[Daniel1769]

That is what I have been saying the whole time. I am glad that you finally see the truth.

Your convoluted doctrine has me backwards now. It should've said "the rapture is after the tribulation."

 

[Daniel1769]

 

[Interplanner]

That is what I have been saying the whole time. I am glad that you finally see the truth.

It is clear that the Rev is about the events of that generation, from the first page. There is no magical rapture event, but there is the removal of the church to safety, which did take place during the Jewish War.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It is clear that the Rev is about the events of that generation, from the first page. There is no magical rapture event, but there is the removal of the church to safety, which did take place during the Jewish War.

:chuckle:

 

[Interplanner]

:chuckle:

This is why the Thess passages are so detailed about the evil guy from Dan 8 and that temple in Jerusalem then, etc. It is astounding how large a doctrine has been forced from one reference to the removal of the church from the Jewish War fiasco.