racism

[Granite]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Asians/Indians/Pakistanis/Arabs

Gotcha. Sorry you've had enough rotten experiences with them to write them off. Indians I've dealt with are decent enough.

Now Arabs, on the other hand, are a decidedly mixed bag. As you probably know there is a VERY large population in metro Detroit (especially Dearborn), where I grew up. I'll admit, most of the Arab men I dealt with are unpleasant. Either pompous or arrogant or something. Weird vibe. Maybe it's just a cultural thing.

 

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by granite1010

Gotcha. Sorry you've had enough rotten experiences with them to write them off. Indians I've dealt with are decent enough.

Let me be a bit more clear. I haven't actually written them off as people who I might fellowship with at some point, but I won't waste my time giving them estimates.

Now Arabs, on the other hand, are a decidedly mixed bag. As you probably know there is a VERY large population in metro Detroit (especially Dearborn), where I grew up. I'll admit, most of the Arab men I dealt with are unpleasant. Either pompous or arrogant or something. Weird vibe. Maybe it's just a cultural thing.

Part of their culture is identifying non Arabs as infidels. Their culture is founded on condescension and lying and I won't have anything to do with them in business or any other type of relationship.

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Rolf:

I actually agree with your point of view, now that you've clarified, except with this caveat: it appears you are quick to blame culture when it's highly possible that you and others have contributed to the problem. Are you willing to change your behavior to make things better? Are you willing to admit that there was a wrong done and that sometimes it takes a very long time to rise above circumstances. It's not fair to expect that all who have very large obstacles to overcome will reach your soceoeconomic status by just trying really hard. Or that the desire to try is granted to everyone at birth. Some are not blessed with the same determination you are. It has to be taught.

I am a bleeding heart liberal. But, I bet a liberal from New England would call me a racist. Because I live in the south, I see problems first hand. While many in other parts of the country can just wax poetically about injustices. There is a problem. I'm willing to acknowledge it. I am also willing to take some blame. Are you?

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Servent:

I have also explained why racists are such on many occasions. And, it is sometimes as difficult to rise above upbringing as bad circumstances caused my mistakes make 100's of years ago. Family members, past and probably present, may qualify as racist. I'm a southerner from a family that's been in the south for hundreds of years. So, I have a heritage myself to overcome. But I'm working on that. Some don't appear to be trying to hard. In fact, some appear to be embracing poor upbringing.

Recently, I noticed a rebel flag in the window of a mobile home on my way to work. I noticed a few days later a board over a broken window of that same mobile home. And, then a few days later, I noticed the flag was gone. At least they learned something.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Wickwoman--for sure there have been some bad effects upon the black population from government programs and what I call "rednecks"--people who think someone is necessarily bad because of their skin color. These are not the real problem, however.
As long as people obsess about wrongs done by others, they are not taking care of their own responsibilities. The black people are capable of shrugging off the bad and putting their efforts toward resolving their problems. Complaining about others and their past wrongs will not contribute anything to the real solution.

The most detrimental effect on them has come from people for whom they vote. LBJ's War On Poverty effectively disassembled black American home life.

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Rolf:

Do you think LBJ had a bad effect on black people when he pushed the Civil Rights Act?

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Statistics say so, and if you were older you could remember what black homes and businesses were before the war on poverty. Check the annual United States Statistical Analysis data concerning two parent black homes prior to the war on poverty, and then check to see the difference in the years following.

You know that one of the stipulations for government aid to families was that no male family member was available to support the family, and government aid was sufficient to cause many families to opt out of two parent homes in favor of government aid. Ask an older black friend about the change in family structure during that period. They will remember when there were real families to amuch greater extent.

Furthermore, with the loss of the two parent home, latch key life began for many children--result: the street corner life; and along with it, drug use and crime. And this was not something that effected only blacks. White families suffered also.

Considering this, we must realize that a large part what has become known as too typical of today's youths is not the result of their birth heritage, but the foolishness of the federal government. OH, THANK YOU, FEDERAL DESTROYERS OF AMERICA!! HOW MUCH BETTER LIFE WOULD BE FOR ALL OF US WITHOUT YOU!!

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Rolf:

I asked you whether black peoples lives got better or worse as a result of the Civil Rights Act which was pushed through by LBJ.

I am old enough to remember what Dixiecrats are. That they were Republicans until Lincoln pushed to free the slaves. Then they were Democrats until LBJ pushed the Civil Rights Act. Neat heritage, huh? How about the Southern Baptists who argued that slavery was Biblical. Another pretty part of southern history.

 

[billwald]

Part of Christianity is telling people they will go to Hell because they are infidels.

Prejudice is bad, like refusing to try raw oysters. Discrimination is good, like refusing to eat lima beans because your mother forced you to for 18 years.

 

[billwald]

"Do you think LBJ had a bad effect on black people when he pushed the Civil Rights Act?"

Bad effect! Prior to '64 there was a functioning African American culture. After '64 the professional black people moved into white neighborhoods and were replaced by hippies and white trash. There is no longer a Black culture because it is white trash culture under a different name.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by billwald

"Do you think LBJ had a bad effect on black people when he pushed the Civil Rights Act?"

Bad effect! Prior to '64 there was a functioning African American culture. After '64 the professional black people moved into white neighborhoods and were replaced by hippies and white trash. There is no longer a Black culture because it is white trash culture under a different name.

A culture under intimidation, threat, in danger if they voted, lynched, burned out...

Yeeeeah. Let's turn back the clock. Back to the way things USED to be. As an acquaintance of mine used to say--jokingly? I guess--"everybody should own one." Cute.

Jolly ole Uncle Toms. Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum.

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Bill:

Integration is not the only subject covered by the Civil Rights Act. There are more pressing issues than busing, as Granite mentioned above.

Here's a link if you'd like to read it:

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/laws/majorlaw/civilr19.htm

 

[Thia]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Asians/Indians/Pakistanis/Arabs

Get this - I stopped at a corner grocery to buy some things for my mother and was chatting with the merchant, an Arab, and his small son. Things were going well until the merchant's father rebuked him (or so I assumed) harshly in Arabic for talking to me, a woman. The merchant then clammed up and stopped chatting with me. Hmmm, great way to do business. And what a horrid example to set for that little boy.

 

[billwald]

Thanks. As a Libetarian I oppose

SEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

because it is in conflict with the 13th amendment. It amounts to involuntary servatude. I agree that it should apply to govt services but not private enterprise which the govt conveniently redefines as a public service.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by billwald

Thanks. As a Libetarian I oppose

SEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

because it is in conflict with the 13th amendment. It amounts to involuntary servatude. I agree that it should apply to govt services but not private enterprise which the govt conveniently redefines as a public service.

Oh BS, Bill, for crying out loud. Involuntary servitude? You out of your freaking gourd? Public accomodation, such as restaurants, gyms, libraries, businesses, and what not aren't restricted based on your nationality, color, or religious persuasion. That's it. End of discussion. The fact that you've got an axe to grind with non-caucasians of the world is your problem, but quit trying to inflict it on everyone else.

You saw humanity at its worst. That's too bad. You'll have to deal with that. But stop trying to see racial conflict everywhere. The nutcases do that, Bill.

 

[wickwoman]

There's an Indian restaurant here in my town. I eat there often. The owner is gracious and polite. He comes to the table and conducts very polite and friendly conversation with us.

I had an Iranian friend at another lawfirm I worked at. He was an attorney but often spent lunch with paralegals and other "staff" because he preferred their more comfortable company. I enjoyed his company and conversation very much. I learned a lot from him about Iranians.

Some middle Eastern people own a convenience store down the road from my house. They are always very friendly and polite to me.

So I guess "they" aren't all alike.

Perhaps the middle easterners who discouraged their son from speaking to Tia were reacting to some post 9/11 fears of their own. My mom tells me a story of her younger sister who used to sit in the lap and hug and kiss the old black man who got turpentine from their trees for them. He would always so "No, no baby. You're not supposed to do that." Because it wasn't proper for a white child to be affectionate to a black man. That's one of the saddest stories I've ever heard.

 

[BillyBob]

Me and the Mrs. had 'Thai' for dinner last night, the entire staff were Asians [Thai's, I guess]. They were pleasant [even though our waiter was a flaming homo] and the food was amazing. I enjoyed their spirit of accomodation and excellence, but I would never consider working for them.

Interestingly, I have a few Black Clients who are good customers. The guy who does my taxes [ie 'helps me avoid paying taxes'] is a succesful black gentleman.

The difference is that the black customers I have are Americans. They have been raised in our culture and understand it. The Asians I run into who want to use my services are foreigners and don't understand how we do business here. You could claim that I am a racist, but a more accurate description would be to say that I am a culturist. And it isn't that I despise Asian culture, I simply have no use for it in my business practices. I still enjoy good Asian food and will continue to frequent their restaurants and even happily tolerate a flaming Thai homo. [I never knew such a thing existed ?????]

 

[Thia]

And that's another thing - how many times have you seen a Caucasian working at a Chinese restaurant? I live in an area that is highly Asian (mostly Chinese), and they definitely practice racism. It makes me feel awkward when I'm a guest in one of their eateries because the waiters definitely cater to other Asians, but it also makes me sad because this is the way we treated minorities back in the 'days;. It's not a good feeling to be on the other side. It pays to show EVERYONE courtesy, not just 'your own'.

 

[Granite]

Whites may not work at these places a lot because they tend to be family owned and operated. But it's certainly not universal.

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by Thia Get this - I stopped at a corner grocery to buy some things for my mother and was chatting with the merchant, an Arab, and his small son. Things were going well until the merchant's father rebuked him (or so I assumed) harshly in Arabic for talking to me, a woman. The merchant then clammed up and stopped chatting with me. Hmmm, great way to do business. And what a horrid example to set for that little boy.

I would point out that you have no idea what the man said, or why he said it. Perhaps the man corrected his son for speaking to an elder uninvited, and then was quiet himself because he was embarrassed by his son's forward behavior. Perhaps the man was scolding his son for some specific thing he said that to an Arab would be considered inappropriate. These are certainly possible. Perhaps it would be wiser to simply leave this exchange as it is: a mystery.

I once installed several furnaces for an Arab man who owned the store near where I lived. We knew each other to chat and had agreed on a price for all the installations. But when the job was completed, and I went to collect the remaining fee, he began to hold back the last $40 or so. The total amout was in the thousands, and he was paying in cash, yet he was trying to withhold a lousy $30 or $40, and at first I got angry, but the more I protested at his foolishness, the more he insisted on not paying the full amount. Finally, in a flash of insight, it occurred to me that perhaps this was a cultural thing. He was the older man, and he was the wealthier of the two of us, and it occurred to me that perhaps it's a point of honor that he "best" me in the deal. So I decided to "surrender" to his relentless haggling and let him keep the last $20.

You wouldn't believe the change that came over him! He understood immediately that I had grasped and respected his culture and respected his position as the elder man and he was so grateful I thought he was going to cry. The $20 meant nothing to him, but the fact that an american who didn't know or understand his culture's business practices would figure it out and respect them meant a great deal to him. I had made a real friend of that guy that day. He just couldn't do enough for me after that.

Sometimes we just don't understand the way other people think, and we insult them accidentally. And sometimes other people don't understand how we think and insult us accidentally, too. But I've found that once we get past those misunderstandings, we are really all a lot alike. Older men want to be respected by younger men. Fathers want their children to grow up to respect their own cultural history. It's easy to misunderstand the signals, but it's easy to forgive these misunderstandings when we remember that we're all a lot alike.