Racism, Bigotry and Misogyny at TOL

[ok doser]

No as your action did not cause your car to drive away.

i thought you wanted the scenario to include another player


we can go back to me driving drunk if you like - it's the same thing - the consequences - no matter how disproportional, unjust, inequitable, whatever - are earned by my actions

i blow my engine? I earned it

crash my car? earned it

get a dwi? earned it

become quadriplegic? earned it

killed? earned it

 

[WizardofOz]

It's not really an opinion- an officer would likely stop a man vs man fight before clearing up a man vs woman fight.

I couldn't really imagine that going differently, as men fighting is brutal and swiftly executed- you can't leave that sitting for a second.

I didn't say a "man vs man fight". I said "On one side of the street is a man beating another man and on the other is a man beating a woman. All other factors are equal.

Who should the officer try to assist first and why?"

 

[ClimateSanity]

711, car, donuts

did you "earn by your actions" the loss of your car?

Most people do earn their heart attacks and strokes if their lifestyle led to it.

 

[rocketman]

One could easily play devil's advocate and say that every rape victim at least partially deserved it, give the logical extension of your argument.

Was that what is being asserted? I stayed out of that spiders web of a thread because I knew it only led to discussions like these where we have strayed into the absurd. Culpability & consequence are not always related, and sometimes they are it is not a one size fits all discussion...nor should it be.

 

[ok doser]

and if i'm a woman and disregard known risk and carelessly and recklessly behave in such a manner as to expose myself to a high degree of that risk?

whatever consequences accrue, i've earned it

hungover? earned it

raped? earned it

killed? earned it


by my actions

 

[quip]

i blame them only if they acted in reckless disregard of risk

Though any action that leaves her vulnerable to rape is charged as being reckless and disregarding. You're proposing a perpetual state of vulnerability and blaming the woman for probable circumstances relating to this state.

and their blame does nothing to take responsibility away from the rapist for his actions.

Moot. Rather you're blaming her for action brought about by another.

ignorance of risk

awareness of risk and steps taken to ameliorate the risk

Impossible....short of permanently enclosing yourself in a panic room. Not a very practical response.

 

[ClimateSanity]

OK doser: - the consequences - no matter how disproportional, unjust, inequitable, whatever - are earned by my actions.

This needs to sink in.

 

[Crucible]

I didn't say a "man vs man fight". I said "On one side of the street is a man beating another man and on the other is a man beating a woman. All other factors are equal.

Who should the officer try to assist first and why?"

If the factors are equal, as in they are being beaten to the same degree, then of course the woman.

That's just recognizing basic physics. But it doesn't mean they need more protection. What they need is to be more proactive. Women aren't going to badger me because I'd rather teach them to be safe than to consistently safeguard them while they do what they please :nono:

That boat sailed at *emancipation*, something they don't get and a part of the reason why I'm saying that they are being treated like children. To be perfectly honest, I see a whole lot of 'getting the best of both worlds' instead of 'being in the real world'- and men not only have to supply it, but are treated second rate as well. It's insult to injury.

 

[ok doser]

Though any action that leaves her vulnerable to rape ...

no

any action that involves a high degree of risk, taken in knowledgeable, willful disregard of that risk

Moot. Rather you're blaming her for action brought about by another.

nope - blaming her for putting herself at risk

Impossible.

nope - otherwise they wouldn't spend so much energy giving advice on how to avoid risky situations

 

[quip]

no

any action that involves a high degree of risk, taken in knowledgeable, willful disregard of that risk

While you fail to make such arbitrary distinctions?

 

[PureX]

It's amazing to me how important establishing blame is to some folks. I think its because they want very badly to imagine that they (and/or their God) are 'in control' of everything that happens to them, good and bad. When in reality, we are not in control of what happens to us much of the time. All we can do is learn to 'play the odds'. To the point where we forget that all we really can do is play the odds: that we never really know what the outcome will be.

This seem to be the realization that some folks are fighting so hard against in establishing blame: the fact that we (and/or God) really are not in control of the outcomes of things.

 

[WizardofOz]

i thought you wanted the scenario to include another player

You're blurring the scenarios but that is the huge difference between the two; a criminal act by one party against another party.

we can go back to me driving drunk if you like - it's the same thing - the consequences - no matter how disproportional, unjust, inequitable, whatever - are earned by my actions

i blow my engine? I earned it

crash my car? earned it

get a dwi? earned it

become quadriplegic? earned it

killed? earned it

Because no one else can be said to be at fault...

Having my car stolen is not deserved or earned due to leaving it running.

It would be an even further stretch to say I chose to have my car stolen.

 

[annabenedetti]

Though any action that leaves her vulnerable to rape is charged as being reckless and disregarding. You're proposing a perpetual state of vulnerability and blaming the woman for probable circumstances relating to this state.

Moot. Rather you're blaming her for action brought about by another.

Impossible....short of permanently enclosing yourself in a panic room. Not a very practical response.

You're talking to a guy who called the victims of a school shooting cowards - and couldn't decide if the young victim in the wheelchair was a coward, he had think on that one. He's a psychopath.

 

[WizardofOz]

If the factors are equal, as in they are being beaten to the same degree, then of course the woman.

But why "of course"?

That's just recognizing basic physics.

Because men are, on average, physically stronger than women?

But it doesn't mean they need more protection.

I think it does. Why else would the officer help the woman first? If we live in a completely lawless society, women are more likely to be victimized because of the physical fact above.

why I'm saying that they are being treated like children.

Forget "why". Tell me how they are being treated like children.

 

[annabenedetti]

It's amazing to me how important establishing blame is to some folks. I think its because they want very badly to imagine that they (and/or their God) are 'in control' of everything that happens to them, good and bad. When in reality, we are not in control of what happens to us much of the time. But we can learn to 'play the odds'. To the point where we forget that all we really can do is play the odds: that we never really know what the outcome will be.

This seem to be the realization that some folks are fighting so hard against in establishing blame: the fact that we (and/or God) really are not in control of the outcomes of things.

I have to wonder if any of them would say the things they've said here to their sister, daughter or wife if she was raped.

... Oh wait. Depends if it was a husband who raped a wife. In that case, according to several here, there's no such thing as spousal rape.

 

[Crucible]

I think it does. Why else would the officer help the woman first? If we live in a completely lawless society, women are more likely to be victimized because of the physical fact above.

And in a society with feminism, men are more likely to be assaulted. Funny how that works, huh :think:

Forget "why". Tell me how they are being treated like children.

They don't have to take accountability the same way men do. You just established that you believe women need more protection than men, but offer nothing in the way of women doing anything for themselves- it's all on men to make it happen.

And that's called treating someone as a child- it's preposterous to tell a child to protect themselves, and if it's the same for women, then....

 

[truthjourney]

And in a society with feminism, men are more likely to be assaulted. Funny how that works, huh :think:



They don't have to take accountability the same way men do. You just established that you believe women need more protection than men, but offer nothing in the way of women doing anything for themselves- it's all on men to make it happen.

And that's called treating someone as a child- it's preposterous to tell a child to protect themselves, and if it's the same for women, then.... ..

Does that include beating women as some kind of twisted, warped, sick way of discipline or punishment?

 

[Crucible]

Does that include beating women as some kind of twisted, warped, sick way of discipline or punishment?

There's men who hit their wife because they project their insecurities on them. And then there's men who hit their wife because she's a lunatic.

If she's the source of those insecurities, or acts irate and crazy, then I don't see any reason to call it 'twisted, warped, or sick'.
I consider that tit for tat, square, natural retribution

You might be surprised in realizing that women didn't start acting and doing the things they do toward men until men were made to not be able to so much as throw a balled up piece of paper at his wife while she makes her family miserable. The standard for 'criminal assault' in current society is something of a joke.

 

[ok doser]

If the factors are equal, as in they are being beaten to the same degree, then of course the woman.

That's just recognizing basic physics.

i hafta chuckle at this, cause today i saw the skinniest kid i've ever seen here at school - male, probably 19, probably fit into my son's jeans when he was 8


and had a nice long conversation with a classmate - female, probably early twenties, bigger than me - taller and heavier


they come in all sizes

 

[annabenedetti]

There's men who hit their wife because they project their insecurities on them. And then there's men who hit their wife because she's a lunatic.

If she's the source of those insecurities, or acts irate and crazy, then I don't see any reason to call it 'twisted, warped, or sick'.
I consider that tit for tat, square, natural retribution

In other words, you'd "deebo" her to the floor.

I've never decked a woman in my life, though I doubt we'd even be having this conversation right now it was never a virtue not to hit women. After all, they would then know what equality was and thus wouldn't want it!

They would learn the very rudimentary things, like minding one's tongue for example :chuckle:

Oh, that's right... you deebo'd her.

When she's beating up on him and he gets tired of it and deebos her to the floor.

~overzealous~