ECT Questions for Roman Catholics

CabinetMaker

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
glassjester said:
I'm trying, in earnest, to answer your question. Genuinely, I am.



Are you reasoning like this?

1. Paul warns early Christians not to be seen eating in temples of idols.
2. Paul worries that the uninitiated will then think idol worship is permissible.
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First, I think that Paul's point here covers a far broader rang of topics than just meat sacrificed to an idol. Second, it is important to note that Paul's concern is for the uninitiated which means people who are familiar with God/gods and forms of worship.

3. Any Christian religious activity that bears a visual resemblance to a fallacious religious activity ought not to be done.
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One should be very careful when doing something that can cause somebody to conclude something about God that is not true. Paul was concerned, so to should we. Take drinking. Is it okay to drink? Sure. Is it okay to get drunk? No. What kind of example to drunk Christians set?
4. A Catholic praying near a statue bears visual resemblance to someone worshiping an idol.


Am I understanding you?
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Not really. My question was very simple. Based on the two pictures, how does somebody discern who is worshiping an idol and who is venerating somebody the statue represents.
 
glassjester

glassjester

Well-known member
CabinetMaker said:
First, I think that Paul's point here covers a far broader rang of topics than just meat sacrificed to an idol. Second, it is important to note that Paul's concern is for the uninitiated which means people who are familiar with God/gods and forms of worship.
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I agree that Paul was completely concerned, here, with the perception of the uninitiated. And yes, anyone in Corinth would be familiar with the temples to gods in that state. Paul is telling the members of the church in Corinth not to attend and take part in rituals and worship of other gods.

Are the people in your Mary picture doing that? Are they worshiping another god?

I say they are not. And there's the answer to your question; there's the difference.


CabinetMaker said:
Not really. My question was very simple. Based on the two pictures, how does somebody discern who is worshiping an idol and who is venerating somebody the statue represents.
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I don't know that Paul wanted anyone to base anything on "two pictures." Is that a fair parallel?

Let's say I concede. Let's say visual similarity is enough to make an action too damaging to the perceptions of the uninitiated. Have we not broadened the principle to the point of meaninglessness?

My point is, if we base Paul's warning on visual similarity alone, then there's an awful lot we'd better not do, for the sake of the uninitiated.
 
1

1Way1Truth1Life

New member
Cruciform said:
There is, however, when an untruth is spoken, as you did in Post #149 above. Try again.
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Complete truth has been posted by me but because your eyes are completely blinded you cannot see. I pray God will open your blinded eyes so that you may come to repentance and thus then to salvation.
 
O

Old man

New member
The Barbarian said:
It's not just a Catholic doctrine. It's the Christian doctrine with regard to Mary. The Orthodox doctrine of the Theotokos is not essentially different from the Catholic and Protestant idea of "Mother of God", although there are nuances involved. Ask Arsenios, who probably would know better than I do.



It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother ..
(Sermon, Christmas, 1522)

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1529)
The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.
(Sermon, September 1, 1522)

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.
(Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.
(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)
Martin Luther

Hostility to Mary is a rather modern unorthodoxy.
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"....but through her to God"

That is not Scriptural.

1 Tim.2:5
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ."
 
Dan Emanuel

Dan Emanuel

Active member
Old man said:
1 Tim.2:5
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ."
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Catholics also pray to Jesus Christ direct, there is nothing against doing so in the popes teaching. But who can better present our case to Him than His own mother? And who know's better how to pray for somebody else, than someone who know's them intimately, like does Mary?


Daniel
 
R

rstrats

Active member
Chrysostom,

re: "but Jesus through her is"


So you're saying that the Messiah has to go through Mary to get to the Father?
 
R

rstrats

Active member
Dan Emanuel,

re: "But who can better present our case to Him than His own mother?"


Just off hand, what would you say might be a conservative number of prayers that are directed to Mary at any given moment around the world?
 
R

rstrats

Active member
Dan Emanuel,

re: "A lot. she is a very busy lady!"


OK, let's say a hundred at any given moment. How do you suppose she keeps them all separated? And when does she get the time to present them to the Messiah? They just keep coming every moment like the chocolates in the Lucy candy factory skit.
 
CabinetMaker

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
glassjester said:
I agree that Paul was completely concerned, here, with the perception of the uninitiated. And yes, anyone in Corinth would be familiar with the temples to gods in that state. Paul is telling the members of the church in Corinth not to attend and take part in rituals and worship of other gods.

Are the people in your Mary picture doing that? Are they worshiping another god?

I say they are not. And there's the answer to your question; there's the difference.




I don't know that Paul wanted anyone to base anything on "two pictures." Is that a fair parallel?

Let's say I concede. Let's say visual similarity is enough to make an action too damaging to the perceptions of the uninitiated. Have we not broadened the principle to the point of meaninglessness?

My point is, if we base Paul's warning on visual similarity alone, then there's an awful lot we'd better not do, for the sake of the uninitiated.
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You are so close to understanding, so very close. It is ALL about the visual similarities. God says worship Me! but what are people to think when they look at you bowed before a statue is form that is identical to those who worshiped a golden calf?
 
Dan Emanuel

Dan Emanuel

Active member
rstrats said:
Dan Emanuel,

re: "A lot. she is a very busy lady!"


OK, let's say a hundred at any given moment. How do you suppose she keeps them all separated? And when does she get the time to present them to the Messiah? They just keep coming every moment like the chocolates in the Lucy candy factory skit.
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What do we actually know about our abilities' in heaven? It could be that the Lucy skit is very dull and boring in heaven.


Daniel
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
rstrats said:
Dan Emanuel,

re: "But who can better present our case to Him than His own mother?"


Just off hand, what would you say might be a conservative number of prayers that are directed to Mary at any given moment around the world?
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Nowhere in Scripture are we told to "pray" to Mary. We are to pray to
God the Father in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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