Question on the Transfiguration

[1Mind1Spirit]

All of the above because for one reason:

Isaiah 42:1-3 KJV
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Matthew 12:17-20 KJV
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

And for another reason:

Genesis 22:2 KJV
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son (H3173 יחיד) Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Genesis 22:2 LXX (Brenton Translation)
2 And he said, Take thy son, the beloved one, (G27 αγαπητος) whom thou hast loved - Isaac, and go into the high land, and offer him there for a whole-burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Greek "agapetos", ("beloved") = Hebrew "yachid", ("one and only", (beloved implied).
Moreover, concerning Isaac, yachid also implies chosen because he was not an only son.

Like wise Jesus?

Hebrews 2:17

“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

 

[glorydaz]

Because different accounts often have slight differences. That does not make them any less reliable. If they were all identical, that would hint towards collusion.

Maybe, but there is also another important group: those who have been taught that God breathed every word and then can’t understand why there are differences.

Rather, there are those who do understand why there are difference AND they know all of Scripture is "God breathed". As Right Divider says, they are reliable. You claim they are not reliable because of those slight differences. Stop pretending like you're not attacking the veracity of the Bible.

 

[2003cobra]

Glory, you haven’t answered
What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

 

[glorydaz]

This was way down in another thread and wasn’t getting answered, so I thought it might need a fresh start.

What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

Matthew 17:5 NRS
5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"

Luke 9:35 NRS
35 Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"

Mark 9:7 NRS
7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!"

There are differences, especially with Luke saying “my chosen” rather than “the beloved.”

Get a decent translation.

Matthew 17:5KJV While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Luke 9:35KJV And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Mark 9:7KJV And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.​

 

[2003cobra]

Get a decent translation.

Matthew 17:5KJV While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Luke 9:35KJV And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Mark 9:7KJV And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.​

You still haven’t answered. Which one of those two alternatives was what the voice from the cloud said?

If you don’t know, just say so.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory, you haven’t answered
What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

I have answered, Sonnet. Why do you keep insisting I haven't answered when I have? Are you deaf or just dumb? :chew:

He said exactly what each reported He said. Matthew has the fullest account in this instance. This is simply an example of how each Gospel author recorded fragments of many much longer conversations. You call them contradictions because you dismiss how God used each man to emphasis different facts pertaining to our Lord's time here on earth. You have no interest in learning about the four Gospel writers, though, and what their mission was.

 

[glorydaz]

You still haven’t answered. Which one of those two alternatives was what the voice from the cloud said?

If you don’t know, just say so.

You haven't changed a bit.....rush rush rush.

You are Sonnet..... there could not be two such pushy ignorant men on the same board.

 

[Angel4Truth]

This was way down in another thread and wasn’t getting answered, so I thought it might need a fresh start.

What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

Matthew 17:5 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/matthew/17-5.html
5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"

Luke 9:35 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/luke/9-35.html
35 Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"

Mark 9:7 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/mark/9-7.html
7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!"

There are differences, especially with Luke saying “my chosen” rather than “the beloved.”

Matthew 17:5 literal with strongs numbers
5.
|2089| While
|0846| he
|9999| {was}
|2980| speaking,
|2400| look,
|3507| a cloud
|5460| radiant
|1982| overshadowed
|0846| them,
|2532| and
|2400| listen,
|5456| a voice
|1537| out
|3588| of the
|3507| cloud,
|3004| saying,
|3778| This
|2076| is
|3588| the
|5207| Son
|3450| of me,
|3588| the
|0027| beloved,
|1722| in
|3739| whom
|2106| I delight,
|0846| him
|0191| listen to!

And then luke 9:35:

35.
|2532| And
|5456| a Voice
|1096| came
|1537| out of
|3588| the
|3507| cloud,
|3004| saying,
|3778| This
|2076| is
|3588| the
|5207| Son
|3450| of Me,
|3588| the
|0027| beloved {one}.
|0846| him
|0191| Listen to!

They say the same thing and use beloved in both cases. When in doubt, go to the sources the translations come from.

 

[daqq]

Get a decent translation.

Matthew 17:5KJV While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Luke 9:35KJV And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Mark 9:7KJV And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.​

Matthew 17:5 literal with strongs numbers
5.
|2089| While
|0846| he
|9999| {was}
|2980| speaking,
|2400| look,
|3507| a cloud
|5460| radiant
|1982| overshadowed
|0846| them,
|2532| and
|2400| listen,
|5456| a voice
|1537| out
|3588| of the
|3507| cloud,
|3004| saying,
|3778| This
|2076| is
|3588| the
|5207| Son
|3450| of me,
|3588| the
|0027| beloved,
|1722| in
|3739| whom
|2106| I delight,
|0846| him
|0191| listen to!

And then luke 9:35:

35.
|2532| And
|5456| a Voice
|1096| came
|1537| out of
|3588| the
|3507| cloud,
|3004| saying,
|3778| This
|2076| is
|3588| the
|5207| Son
|3450| of Me,
|3588| the
|0027| beloved {one}.
|0846| him
|0191| Listen to!

They say the same thing and use beloved in both cases. When in doubt, go to the sources the translations come from.

Actually, those are from the Textus Receptus, in other words it is not the translation but the choice in manuscripts.

 

[daqq]

Like wise Jesus?

Hebrews 2:17

“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

"Like wise Jesus" or "Likewise Jesus" ???

 

[beameup]

Glory, you haven’t answered
What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

I'd be willing to bet that the statement was a direct quote, in Hebrew, from Isaiah 42:1-3.
However, we don't have the original text of the Old Testament, as the "Masoretic Text" dates
from about 1,000 A.D. Most of the New Testament quotes from the Old Testament are generally
attributed to the Koine Greek Septuagint (about 3rd century B.C.).

 

[marhig]

This was way down in another thread and wasn’t getting answered, so I thought it might need a fresh start.

What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

Matthew 17:5 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/matthew/17-5.html
5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"

Luke 9:35 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/luke/9-35.html
35 Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"

Mark 9:7 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/mark/9-7.html
7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!"

There are differences, especially with Luke saying “my chosen” rather than “the beloved.”

He's saying this is my beloved chosen son, hear him.

Why nit pick? The message is that Jesus is the son of God, he is the beloved of the father, chosen of him and sent by him to preach the gospel and bare witness of the truth. And God tells us to listen to him.

That's it!

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

As I asked:
What did the Father actually say from the cloud?


I am hoping someone has the courage to take a position.

From the word for word translations from the Original Greek:

This is the Son of me the beloved in whom I am well pleased Listen you to him. Matthew 17:5
This is the Son of me the beloved Listen you to him. Mark 9:7
This is the Son of me whom I have chosen Listen to him. Luke 9:35

That's my position. Do I get a badge?

 

[2003cobra]

I have answered, Sonnet. Why do you keep insisting I haven't answered when I have? Are you deaf or just dumb? :chew:

He said exactly what each reported He said. Matthew has the fullest account in this instance. This is simply an example of how each Gospel author recorded fragments of many much longer conversations. You call them contradictions because you dismiss how God used each man to emphasis different facts pertaining to our Lord's time here on earth. You have no interest in learning about the four Gospel writers, though, and what their mission was.

So you think Mark and Luke deleted part of the Word of God.

They are not perfect and complete.

They have an error of omission.

Thanks for finally answering.

 

[2003cobra]

Matthew 17:5 literal with strongs numbers
5.
|2089| While
|0846| he
|9999| {was}
|2980| speaking,
|2400| look,
|3507| a cloud
|5460| radiant
|1982| overshadowed
|0846| them,
|2532| and
|2400| listen,
|5456| a voice
|1537| out
|3588| of the
|3507| cloud,
|3004| saying,
|3778| This
|2076| is
|3588| the
|5207| Son
|3450| of me,
|3588| the
|0027| beloved,
|1722| in
|3739| whom
|2106| I delight,
|0846| him
|0191| listen to!

And then luke 9:35:

35.
|2532| And
|5456| a Voice
|1096| came
|1537| out of
|3588| the
|3507| cloud,
|3004| saying,
|3778| This
|2076| is
|3588| the
|5207| Son
|3450| of Me,
|3588| the
|0027| beloved {one}.
|0846| him
|0191| Listen to!

They say the same thing and use beloved in both cases. When in doubt, go to the sources the translations come from.

Did you notice Luke made the error of omitting “in whom I delight?”

Or Matthew made the error of inserting it.

We could use 2 Peter 1 as a tie breaker:

For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.


Would you like to check that one in the same format you checked the others?

 

[2003cobra]

He's saying this is my beloved chosen son, hear him.

Why nit pick? The message is that Jesus is the son of God, he is the beloved of the father, chosen of him and sent by him to preach the gospel and bare witness of the truth. And God tells us to listen to him.

That's it!

Yes, The Message is clear.

The only reason I was nitpicking is because small errors and omissions like this—while they do not in any way, and actually enhance, the credibility of the scriptures—absolutely discredit the man-made doctrine of inerrancy.

We don’t need to pad the resume of the Bible. It doesn’t need our embellishment, especially embellishments specifically proven wrong by the text.

 

[2003cobra]

From the word for word translations from the Original Greek:

This is the Son of me the beloved in whom I am well pleased Listen you to him. Matthew 17:5
This is the Son of me the beloved Listen you to him. Mark 9:7
This is the Son of me whom I have chosen Listen to him. Luke 9:35

That's my position. Do I get a badge?

No, the badge goes to people with one answer.

You gave three.

It is like you checked all three on a multiple choice test.

So, you get an F but you can have a retest.

You should not have this problem on an open book test.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

No, the badge goes to people with one answer.

You gave three.

It is like you checked all three on a multiple choice test.

So, you get an F but you can have a retest.

You should not have this problem on an open book test.

I see you think the differences are a problem? Actually if all the accounts in the Bible matched perfectly then there would be serious reasons to doubt the Bible, because it would show there was collusion involved in its creation. However, the three writers here where not eye witnesses but got there information second or even third hand and so of course there would be slight differences just as we would expect.

 

[2003cobra]

I see you think the differences are a problem? Actually if all the accounts in the Bible matched perfectly then there would be serious reasons to doubt the Bible, because it would show there was collusion involved in its creation. However, the three writers here where not eye witnesses but got there information second or even third hand and so of course there would be slight differences just as we would expect.

I agree with all you wrote.

I don’t see it as a problem at all for the validity and authority of the Bible. Luke clearly tells us that he investigated the matter and used eyewitnesses.

For people who want to say the Bible is the inerrant, God-breathed Word of God, these differences are a problem.

If you accept Peter as the author 2 Peter (I don’t, as much of the early church didn’t and as most Bible scholars don’t), then we do have an eyewitness account:

2 Peter 1 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I agree with all you wrote.

I don’t see it as a problem at all for the validity and authority of the Bible. Luke clearly tells us that he investigated the matter and used eyewitnesses.

For people who want to say the Bible is the inerrant, God-breathed Word of God, these differences are a problem.

If you accept Peter as the author 2 Peter (I don’t, as much of the early church didn’t and as most Bible scholars don’t), then we do have an eyewitness account:

2 Peter 1 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

Hang on:

I said; "so of course there would be slight differences just as we would expect."

You say; "I agree with all you wrote"

But clearly you don't because you also say; "these differences are a problem."

So please clearly state what you position is on this issue.

You then go on to talk about the the authorship of 2 Peter and it being possibly an eye witness account depending on ones POV but you don't explain what that has to do with Matthew, mark and Luke's account of the transfiguration which is what your thread is about. Please explain.