ECT Question for OSAS'ers

[turbosixx]

I ran across this verse today and was wondering how someone from the OSAS camp would view it. From the language, if Timothy doesn’t continue in truth he is in jeopardy.

I Tim. 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.




I looked up the Greek word and it appears to be future tense when looking at other places it’s used.

sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Short Definition: I save, heal
Definition: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

Rom. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[jamie]

Paul told Timothy, "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." (1 Timothy 4:16)

 

[Danoh]

Save yourself from what? How? What's this about saving others?

What was the Apostle Paul relating when he then ended with that passage?

Who, what, when, where, why, and how are very often all "the Greek" one actually ever needs.

All other aspects of both communicating, and understanding intended sense, are based on that.

In any communication between people in any area of life.

 

[turbosixx]

Save yourself from what?

Thanks for your insight. What do you see him losing if he departed from the doctrine?

What was the Apostle Paul relating when he then ended with that passage?

This is how he started the passage.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[Danoh]

Thanks for your insight. What do you see him losing if he departed from the doctrine?



This is how he started the passage.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

In the latter times, some would have that one depart from THE Faith - from its doctrine or teachings - to other; false teachings.

I see the danger of losing; not one's salvation, Gal. 3:1-3; but their understanding of its doctrines.

Thus, the Apostle Paul's emphasis on the means for avoiding that through the various practices he there reminds him of the need to continue in the practice of.

I've met people who had once known the truth of 1 Cor. 15:1-4; but the world and or religion had gotten a hold of their understanding to such an extent and for so long, that they had long since ceased understanding the simplicity of the gospel.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The issue in 1 Tim. 4 is a similar one - the need to guard against works based teachings by staying focused in the truth daily, so that mess is ever right off recognizable for what it is, that it be unable to get a foothold because one is ever instant in season as to "the truth of the gospel."

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

THE Faith refers to the doctrines or details and teachings THE Faith is comprised of, and by which the Believer is established, rooted and grounded in THE faith.

Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[turbosixx]

I see the danger of losing; not one's salvation, Gal. 3:1-3; but their understanding of its doctrines.

Looking from outside of OSAS, I wonder why is there danger in that if he can't lose his salvation?

 

[Danoh]

Why is there danger in that if he can't lose his salvation?

I've already answered that with the Galatians and Colossians passages.

Unless you were merely attempting to prove some "once saved, ever uncertain" notion.

In which case, never mind; remain in the error you were actually attempting to promote once more.

 

[turbosixx]

I've already answered that with the Galatians and Colossians passages.

Unless you were merely attempting to prove some "once saved, ever uncertain" notion.

In which case, never mind; remain in the error you were actually attempting to promote once more.

Ok, I'll look at it again. Thanks

 

[heir]

I ran across this verse today and was wondering how someone from the OSAS camp would view it. From the language, if Timothy doesn’t continue in truth he is in jeopardy.

I Tim. 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

The context is, in taking heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine (no other doctrine 1 Timothy 1:3 KJV) than that which Paul preached unto us (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV), continuing in them will save thyself and them that hear thee from the bad doctrine ("seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils") of verse 1!

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Why does this have to mean that Timothy do this, or else? Read the whole chapter. It begins with a warning about misleading doctrines of devils. It goes on to admonish young Timothy to be strong in the faith, adhere to sound doctrine, "...continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Why is this not merely saying sound doctrine is the doctrine that saves, as opposed to doctrine that doesn't? Why would this be construed as a threat to Timothy's salvation, as opposed to admonishment for him to be a careful minister of the gospel that saves, a reminder how important sound doctrine is? On what basis can you arrive at the conclusion that one verse contradicts many other verses that speak to believers having the irrevocable gift of eternal life? Is the verse contradictory, or is it your interpretation of it, if you're saying Paul's threatening Timothy's salvation?

If you are one to pluck words and verses out of context, the same verse says "save thyself" to Timothy, therefore we have to save ourselves, despite the entirety of scripture that only faith in the blood of and grace of Jesus Christ can save? Despite that salvation is the gift of God by grace, and not of works? Would you have Paul telling Timothy to get to work, to save himself? "Save thyself" is right there in that verse, right?

A text apart from its context is a pretext. Here is another verse from Timothy, 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Nick M]

Dead to sin and slave to righteousness mean just what it says. Explain slave to righteousness.

 

[turbosixx]

Why does this have to mean that Timothy do this, or else?

I’ll admit I’m not a English expert but when he says “in doing this thou shalt…” implies that if he doesn’t do this he shalt not.

Read the whole chapter. It begins with a warning about misleading doctrines of devils. It goes on to admonish young Timothy to be strong in the faith, adhere to sound doctrine, "...continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." Why is this not merely saying sound doctrine is the doctrine that saves, as opposed to doctrine that doesn't?

I believe it is saying that. That’s what I want to know the OSAS perspective, what happens if he doesn’t? If I understand OSAS correctly, he can’t lose his salvation so what’s the danger and what happens to Timothy if he doesn’t “continue in them” and drifts to teaching false doctrines? I can understand why if he preached false doctrine others wouldn't be saved but why include Timothy?

On what basis can you arrive at the conclusion that one verse contradicts many other verses that speak to believers having the irrevocable gift of eternal life?

I know of no verse that says or implies that it’s “irrevocable”.

 

[turbosixx]

Dead to sin and slave to righteousness mean just what it says. Explain slave to righteousness.

Not sure exactly where you’re going with this question but the one we serve is who we are slaves to.

16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

If we obey God's word, sound doctrine, then we are slaves to righteousness but false doctrine we are slaves to sin.

 

[turbosixx]

continuing in them will save thyself

This is the part I don't understand from the OSAS viewpoint. I can understand how if Timothy stopped preaching the gospel how it would prevent others from being saved but why include Timothy in that statement if he's already saved and can't lose it?


Can he preach a false gospel and still remain among the saved?
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

 

[Danoh]

This is the part I don't understand from the OSAS viewpoint. I can understand how if Timothy stopped preaching the gospel how it would prevent others from being saved but why include Timothy in that statement if he's already saved and can't lose it?


Can he preach a false gospel and still remain among the saved?
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Typical of your kind; you've built the proverbial rock to big for even the Lord to lift.

You've boxed yourself in from any hope of seeing what several of us have already pointed out to you from the passages themselves.

Good luck with that; no matter the answer; you will only twist it as well.

In this; yours is the worst kind of "sincerity."

The kind wanting to know badly, but only only so long as it conforms to his long set in his way error.

The typical male lamenting his having found himself lost out on the road, and yet insistent that his wife's suggestion that he simply pull over, ask someone and actually listen is unnecessary.

A belated welcome to TOL; there are plenty just like you on here.

:doh:

 

[turbosixx]

you will only twist it as well.

What I find ironic about this statement is that I believe what God’s word plainly says. When Paul says “in Him you were also circumcised” and “for we are the true circumcision” I believe him and don't need to say "that's not what he's saying". Why else would he say it. You on the other hand look beyond what it says and use the ONLY God approved version to inform us knuckle draggers why it doesn’t mean what it says. I assume you’re too smart for your own good and feel you must figure out what it’s saying instead of just taking it at face value. Did God give us a book that the common man can’t understand? I suggest you look to understand why it says what it says instead of why it doesn't mean what it says.


You didn’t say if you believe these people were still saved or not.

I've met people who had once known the truth of 1 Cor. 15:1-4; but the world and or religion had gotten a hold of their understanding to such an extent and for so long, that they had long since ceased understanding the simplicity of the gospel.

 

[jamie]

I know of no verse that says or implies that it’s “irrevocable”.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)​

The gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Why? Because eternal life equates to immortality which cannot be negated.

 

[turbosixx]

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)​

The gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Why? Because eternal life equates to immortality which cannot be negated.

Looking at the context, I believe what this is saying is that even though the Jews rejected Christ the gifts and calling is still available to them.


29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.



Looking earlier in the chapter, do you see this as being in Christ and then cut off from Christ?

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear ; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[Crucible]

OSAS simply means that the faithful are eternally secure. It's 'Perseverance of the Saints', not 'Believe Today, Believe Whatever Tomorrow'.

If you fall away, you were never saved to begin with- it is a doctrine based on the notion that salvation cannot be gained and lost, gained and lost, gained and lost.

(Catholicism)

It has a mighty way of shoving off folk who think they are some sort of authority or judge on others.

(Catholicism)

In fact, everything about Reformed doctrine is straight up anti-Catholic.

(Reformation)

But some people want to be against both Reformed and Catholic beliefs, being insufferable know-it-alls but not really possessing much theological fabric.

(Counter-Reformists)

 

[jamie]

Looking at the context, I believe what this is saying is that even though the Jews rejected Christ the gifts and calling is still available to them.

That's true but the context of the thread is OSAS. And in that conrext Peter said, "having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever..." (1 Peter 1:23).

The word "born" should have been translated as begotten because Jesus is the only one so far who has been born of the Spirit according to Jesus' definition.

Jesus said, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) Jesus now has an incorruptible body and we will too at the first resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:52-53)

Jesus is the only person so far who has been raised from the dead in an incorruptible body with immortality.

But once saved in an incorruptible, immortal body the person is forever saved.