Protecting Loved Ones

Mr. Adam

New member
Feel free to explain all the Christians murdered in the last...ever. I'd say there's something you're missing somewhere. :think:
Most of the Diciples died on a cross, or was burned alive. And to my understanding, (which I can be wrong) they didn't rebutle. (But they didn't rebutle for God, so Mabey going back to the question...defending for ones self I'd say is a pretty good question)
But the Question that I'm looking for is, is it, or is it not ok to defend loved ones?
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Most of the Diciples died on a cross, or was burned alive. And to my understanding, (which I can be wrong) they didn't rebutle. (But they didn't rebutle for God, so Mabey going back to the question...defending for ones self I'd say is a pretty good question)
But the Question that I'm looking for is, is it, or is it not ok to defend loved ones?

You can do it within Jesus' word. Jesus makes it clear that violence is not acceptable no matter what.

"love your enemy" message explains how we should behave in every situation.
 

bybee

New member
You can do it within Jesus' word. Jesus makes it clear that violence is not acceptable no matter what.

"love your enemy" message explains how we should behave in every situation.

Of course after your enemy has slaughtered your family and then slaughters you he is free to commence slaughtering others.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Of course after your enemy has slaughtered your family and then slaughters you he is free to commence slaughtering others.

I agree. Jesus says do good to your enemies. It's slightly hard to do that if you are already dead.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Love protects, and there is Romans Chapter 13 - which pretty much shows that God allows the bearing of the sword against evildoers.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
I agree. Jesus says do good to your enemies. It's slightly hard to do that if you are already dead.

How is killing a lost person doing good to him?

If he kills you, what have you lost if you truly have eternal life?

If you kill him, how will he ever receive eternal life?

I did not receive the death penalty that I deserved for my sins because of God's forbearance.

Shouldn't I show the same mercy to another that God showed me?
 
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Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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I want to know the answer to this. Is the Bible specific enough on this or does it fall short?

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.​
 

elohiym

Well-known member
But the Question that I'm looking for is, is it, or is it not ok to defend loved ones?

God defends His children according to scriptures I've already cited. It is okay for Him to do that. Who would disagree? But the way He does that is not the way men typically defend their children; He is long-suffering and has no fear of death (being the eternal life-giver). God sees the attacker as His lost child, a sinner in need of salvation. If you saw the attacker as your lost brother, God's child He loves and wants to save, I believe it would temper your response. What you believe will determine what you do to defend your loved ones.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
How is killing a lost person doing good to him?

If he kills you, what have you lost if you truly have eternal life?

If you kill him, how will he ever receive eternal life?

I did not receive the death penalty that I deserved for my sins because of God's forbearance.

Shouldn't I show the same mercy to another that God showed me?

I don't jump out of a plane in the air without a parachute because I might survive without doing myself any serious damage. In the same way, I don't base rational decisions of self-defence on what a person might do afterwards. This is not realistic. To be realistic you need to pay what you owe first before you give away to random strangers. And you owe your family its protection. You don't owe an attacker anything.

One of the problems with non-violence is that in its origin it is just another form of legalism. The idea of turning the other cheek, loving your enemies and so on, gets converted into a new law, the law of non-violence. The law then gets its own existence independent of what gave it its birth. That's what law does. A person can still serve in the army and not be a violent person. The best people for the army are those who are not violent. Being non-violent is not the same thing as letting others be violent to you without redress. A violent person is someone who is quick to take revenge, someone who enjoys breaking things and breaking people and looks for opportunities to do so. Making a law out of non-violence destroys this distinction and can be very dangerous, allowing great evils into the world.
 

Stripe

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The thread is about self-defense, not homosexuality.

Well, sure. However, Uberpod seemed to be open to what the Bible teaches for a moment, so I thought I'd tell him. :thumb:
 

bybee

New member
I don't jump out of a plane in the air without a parachute because I might survive without doing myself any serious damage. In the same way, I don't base rational decisions of self-defence on what a person might do afterwards. This is not realistic. To be realistic you need to pay what you owe first before you give away to random strangers. And you owe your family its protection. You don't owe an attacker anything.

One of the problems with non-violence is that in its origin it is just another form of legalism. The idea of turning the other cheek, loving your enemies and so on, gets converted into a new law, the law of non-violence. The law then gets its own existence independent of what gave it its birth. That's what law does. A person can still serve in the army and not be a violent person. The best people for the army are those who are not violent. Being non-violent is not the same thing as letting others be violent to you without redress. A violent person is someone who is quick to take revenge, someone who enjoys breaking things and breaking people and looks for opportunities to do so. Making a law out of non-violence destroys this distinction and can be very dangerous, allowing great evils into the world.

Well said!
 

bybee

New member
God defends His children according to scriptures I've already cited. It is okay for Him to do that. Who would disagree? But the way He does that is not the way men typically defend their children; He is long-suffering and has no fear of death (being the eternal life-giver). God sees the attacker as His lost child, a sinner in need of salvation. If you saw the attacker as your lost brother, God's child He loves and wants to save, I believe it would temper your response. What you believe will determine what you do to defend your loved ones.

I am extremely grateful and thankful to God that you are not my father, uncle, brother, husband or son.
So you will stand by and watch your daughter raped?
 

matt86

New member
I don't jump out of a plane in the air without a parachute because I might survive without doing myself any serious damage. In the same way, I don't base rational decisions of self-defence on what a person might do afterwards. This is not realistic. To be realistic you need to pay what you owe first before you give away to random strangers. And you owe your family its protection. You don't owe an attacker anything.

One of the problems with non-violence is that in its origin it is just another form of legalism. The idea of turning the other cheek, loving your enemies and so on, gets converted into a new law, the law of non-violence. The law then gets its own existence independent of what gave it its birth. That's what law does. A person can still serve in the army and not be a violent person. The best people for the army are those who are not violent. Being non-violent is not the same thing as letting others be violent to you without redress. A violent person is someone who is quick to take revenge, someone who enjoys breaking things and breaking people and looks for opportunities to do so. Making a law out of non-violence destroys this distinction and can be very dangerous, allowing great evils into the world.

I also believe this is very well said and lines up with my beliefs quite well. I still find it hard to believe that Jesus would tell you to allow yourself to be murdered or to allow your family to be murdered and not defend yourselves against the evil.

How do you know God's blessing to you in that situation isn't your ability to overcome to the evil doer and to live? Most of the scriptures about turning the other cheek and of that nature I think are speaking of loving someone who has wronged you, not speaking about physical confrontations.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
I don't jump out of a plane in the air without a parachute because I might survive without doing myself any serious damage. In the same way, I don't base rational decisions of self-defence on what a person might do afterwards. This is not realistic. To be realistic you need to pay what you owe first before you give away to random strangers. And you owe your family its protection. You don't owe an attacker anything.

I can't compare what I'm suggesting to jumping out of a plane without a parachute. It's like comparing jumping off the temple roof because of temptation to me showing mercy to my enemies or asking God to forgive them while they murdered me. Apples and oranges, imo.

As for realistic, I've had a gun to my head and seen my loved ones robbed in front of me. There was nothing I could do without getting us all shot. And we begged for our lives when they told us to start climbing the staircase to the roof. If I could go back in time to that situation and relive it, I would not want a gun. I would want what I have now, no fear of death (Heb 2:15) and the knowledge of God.

As for family, I view the attacker as God's child who is dead in sin and lost. My self-defense response will be tempered by that reality because I believe it and my choices are determined by my beliefs. Whether or not I owe my family protection in every sense is debatable. You first have to define family and explain why others are excluded, like the unborn victims of abortion.

One of the problems with non-violence is that in its origin it is just another form of legalism. The idea of turning the other cheek, loving your enemies and so on, gets converted into a new law, the law of non-violence. The law then gets its own existence independent of what gave it its birth. That's what law does.

But Jesus did say love your enemies and be merciful as God was merciful to you. In what way have I misunderstood that? I don't see that His words preclude physical force or cunning to defend oneself. However, I do see that mercy precludes killing a lost person who is already dead in sin when you have the power to let him live.

A person can still serve in the army and not be a violent person. The best people for the army are those who are not violent. Being non-violent is not the same thing as letting others be violent to you without redress. A violent person is someone who is quick to take revenge, someone who enjoys breaking things and breaking people and looks for opportunities to do so. Making a law out of non-violence destroys this distinction and can be very dangerous, allowing great evils into the world.

I don't need violence to defend myself or my family, so it's not a law for me. We believe God protects us; He shows us and provides for the reasonable precautions we need to take in this evil world.

As for the Army, I served in combat and know a little about fighting. In war, it's best to win without firing a shot while using non-lethal force and cunning.

In the United States, there is a duty to retreat from attackers. You can't just gun someone down. Castle doctrine doesn't apply in a dark alley, as far as I know.

I should also mention that it takes training to defend your family against armed attackers. Most people would be incapable of doing anything in a real situation; it's all just tough talk.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
I am extremely grateful and thankful to God that you are not my father, uncle, brother, husband or son.

Wow. See? You don't know who your family is. It's limited to those people.

And what would your Father do if someone tried to murder you? :think:

So you will stand by and watch your daughter raped?

NO!

Are you pretending you didn't read anything I posted or proving you didn't?

How offensive.
 

Huckleberry

New member
You don't think they believed Isaiah 54:17 or the other scriptures I quoted?
Doesn't answer my question, at all. Why weren't they protected, as you claim they are? That is one of your arguments against self-defense, is it not? I would think you'd be glad to answer, as it's rather integral to your argument.
But you can't say what, can you?
Sure I can. The promise obviously wasn't to them, else they'd have been protected. I notice that you didn't answer the challenge yourself, but rather just turned it around on me. In fact, I see you doing that a lot. Any hope of your actually answering at any point?
 
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