Proof from the Bible that God is In Time
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Dear hoofadoo, we've addressed this question in our Battle Royale X (on whether the future is settled or open) in post 4B in the section titled,
On How to Make a Rooster Crow. Please consider checking it out and feel free to comment here. Thanks!
UPDATE: I see that chatmaggot suggested the same, and I see also your kind reply. Thanks hoofadoo! -Bob
This is completely illogical, and false.
Holding to your view of God means that God has eternally known all things and cannot create anything. That is a fact.
MrRadish, this is the kind of extra-biblical reasoning that all the Scripture in the opening post is meant to address. If you force yourself to address the biblical material in the OP, you might see that these issues that you've brought up have answers.
-Bob Enyart
Lon
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You are confusing yourself here. Don't worry if it is 'greek philosophy' or not. Worry about if it is true or not. If it is true, the Bible will back it up 100%. Truth cannot be mutually exclusive. If an Australian believes the sun rises in the East, you don't have to go off on a strange tangent that I'm "heavily influence by Australians." Furthermore, even if it could remotely be shown by coincidence, are the Australians wrong? It just becomes a convoluted mess of extemporaneous rabbit trails.
Same here, He isn't bound by anything. We might as well say "Polish Wisdom" "Confuscious teaching" "Looney Toonism."
Do I even have to know Pythagaras to understand Pythagorean theorem? Isn't a2 + b2 = c2 less complicated than a history of Pythagaras? More importantly, isn't it true regardless of whether I found it in the Bible? If I can't find it in the bible, does that make it automatically untrue?
Don't uncritically parrot information? Just an idea.
He was a greek philosopher/mathematician btw. It doesn't matter to me if you don't like him and he's not in the Bible. His theorem is true and an appeal to scripture isn't going to get me to reject a2 + b2 = c2. I know you know that and this is ridiculous, but you essentially are arguing from the same logic here. "Yes" we want the Biblical truth but if, as in 1+1=2, we see a truth not explicit in scripture, you can bet scripture backs it up one way or another (Psalm 19:1).
I personally have not drawn any conclusions about Open/Settled Theism and am trying to understand both views. Is there any Salvific implications of one view over the other? Or is just how we view God. Just a question....
Lon I see you are using a line and a ray, don't you believe that a line also has a start point before going both directions? I mean a number line has a zero before going infinite in both directions which would still indicate time in both directions, positive and negative, no?
Lon I see you are using a line and a ray, don't you believe that a line also has a start point before going both directions? I mean a number line has a zero before going infinite in both directions which would still indicate time in both directions, positive and negative, no?
Of course Jesus, as a human being, changed. The point is so obvious that it shouldn't even have to be made:
Luke 1:80 (cf. Luke 2:40)
So the child grew and became strong in spirit
Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
So the child grew and became strong in spirit
Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Jesus in his human nature changed, grew, matured, etc. Jesus in his divine nature does not change, as per Heb 13:8.
Well, I'm sure you'll agree that Jesus the human being did have a start-up date at the Incarnation (Heb 1:6), while Jesus the Son of God is eternally begotten of the Father (Heb 7:3).
Agreed, and that is why I have stated that God is both immanent within His creation and transcendent to it.
Really? God can't create what He has already conceived of?
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
rainee, some great points. Thanks for the kindness in your comments. I especially agreed with your comment that God could "end it all" as a way of stopping the wicked from further harming others on earth. Great point. And regarding non-biblical terms, the OP doesn't argue that we shouldn't use non-biblical terms (like Trinity for example), but rather, that Christians are led to believe that many non-biblical terms and the timeless concept are scriptural, when in fact they are pagan, and that where the Bible addresses the exact topic, it does so in many, many places with terms that indicate the exact opposite of the doctrine taught by "settled view" theologians.
Thanks rainee! -Bob Enyart
Interesting :think: "In The Beginning" this phrase infers there was a start point, a beginning.
John 1:1 refers back to Genesis 1:1.
This is from Google for: definition of eternal
e·ter·nal /iˈtərnl/
Adjective:
1. Lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
2. (of truths, values, or questions) Valid for all time; essentially unchanging.
Sky., feel free to check out many other dictionaries and Greek and Hebrew lexicons and then reply back. Also, if I were you, I'd reconsider that list of phrases in the OP that present the manner in which the Bible extensively presents the idea of eternity, which seems to be the exact opposite of how you're presenting it. Please consider!
Thanks Sky.
-Bob Enyart
Sky,
In Battle Royale X post 3B there's a section on the Isaiah Settled View "Proof Texts" which addresses explicitly 46:10 and that from the beginning God declared that He shall have the victory. (And see other interesting observations there.)
God knows everything KNOWABLE that he WANTS to know. Please consider Post 1B of BR X on the qualitative (biblical) vs. quantitative (pagan) attributes of God, and realize that "how much" knowledge God has is a quantitative matter, and that God the Son divested himself of quantities of knowledge when He became a man such that even the Son did not know the day of the Second Coming, but only the Father. Thus the quantitative attributes are not the fundamental attributes of God. But the eternal God is living personal, relational, good and loving: these are the overwhelmingly clear, biblcal and fundamental attributes of God.
-Bob Enyart
Guyver... have you thought long and hard about this?
ETERNAL means TIMELESS. God is Eternal. That is Christian that is what I believe. Also God is ALL KNOWING because He existed in eternity past.
Conceived of when? In your view (and the view of the other dissenters) the eternal God would never have created anything for all things would be in the mind of God eternally. ALL things would be as eternal as God is eternal.
The fact that you, Lon, zippy, and the others cannot comprehend this, speaks loud and clear that this subject is beyond your scope to reason.
Paulos, Did "Jesus as a human being," BECOME flesh? Or did God the Son become flesh?
-Bob Enyart
"God Transcending time"--The statement is illogical in itself. I've said this before. Time isn't something tangible or even spiritual. You can't hold time in your hand or touch it. You can't bend it, warp it or do anything with it because it is an abstract concept to used to describe a sequence of events. An example: Jesus was born of a virgin, lived on the Earth, was crucified, died,was buried and was raised on the third day. This sequence is time. It also illustrates that God is in time. If God was outside of time we would be just like a rock. There would be no sequences of events.
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