Problems with the Trinity.

[Lon]

You have just reinforced my 6th point.

That you are going to hell??? :think:

The Holy Spirit does indeed point to truth and WILL guide His own to Himself. The man without the Spirit cannot understand nor does he willingly want to do so.

There is no amount of debate that will or can 'change' a carnal mind. The Spirit will lead those who have Him, toward and not away from one another. There is no other direction to go. People of God are drawn together Romans 12:4-8 and 1 John 2:19

 

[Lon]

Omnipotence does not mean almighty. :doh:

They mean very different things. Are you a Calvinist? Do you even know what Omnipotence actually means?

I really cannot talk to you without insulting your intelligence. I've two degrees. One that says you don't know the first thing about what you are talking about.
Omni means "All" Potent means "Power."

I cannot talk to you.

"Godhead" is not in the Bible unless you are using a twisted translation like the Amplified Bible.

Are you familiar with Strong's? G2320 Same word.

"I and the Father are one" is a phrase and not a trinitarian term like hypostatic union or eternally begotten. When read in context, I don't consider it to mean what you think it means.

It doesn't matter what you think, being wrong on the previous points. It matters if you are correct: there is NO sense that anyone could say "You, Hiltrot, and the Father are One." Why? Because it'd be a lie. "Lon and the Father" are not one. We are one in Christ but HE makes intercession between us and the Father and the Spirit is "ever making intercession for us."

What Hiltrot thinks with his tiny bit of scripture study and understanding? Of no importance (respectively). What others with better study habits and longer time in God's word think? Of much more weight, and so we read council discussion (the rest of us), creeds (the rest of us) and doctrinal statements (the rest of us). Why? 1) because I've spent a good deal of time knowing and ensuring that I grasp scripture because I'm not an audacious clown that thinks he's smarter, better educated with no degree, and/or more full of the Holy Spirit that somehow leads him/her to disdain the people of God and start arguing with them all over the internet. 2) because the Spirit leads me to ensure if I am right or not and He leads me to humility: Knowing exactly my prowess as well as what more I've to learn, and He does so also by fellowship, being careful where I might disagree, to gently and carefully discuss where I may differ. and 3) finally, because when I've seen something else, I've learned to study then study harder before being audacious and egotistical in my disagreements. The Spirit does lead and those with Him, follow. In Him -Lon

 

[Lon]

It's not true that in all texts verses are left out. However, scriptures are twisted. Sometimes in translation. But it is clear that Trinitarian verses have been added and others changed to support the trinitarian view. I am not exaggerating.

:nono: You are incorrect and MUCH overstated again. There is no way to assert such a thing without indoctrination. There HAVE been speculations about those verses but the NIV, for instance, includes them BECAUSE they are not certain. You, in your unprofessional (not part of the translation profession) making claims otherwise? :nono: You are getting WAY too big for your proverbial britches. I've two degrees. I can tell by your posts, (can tell, mind you) that you have neither a language degree nor Bible degree. It shows. Your ignorance shows. You can move in any direction you like but your actual ignorance is showing and you aren't open to correction on this point. I'll leave you to your thread. I see it as a sham, when it is obvious you don't have the wherewithal. You are at a point where you should be 'listening' and not 'posturing' in your theology life. :wave: I cannot do anything with you until you are open to good instruction. Scripture is clear. Creeds are clear.

 

[Hilltrot]

In two sentences: God is presented as one in all of scripture thus '-une' is indisputable for all of Christendom.

The presentations of God are given in the Bible: Father Son Spirit. Paul, without flinching calls the Lord Jesus Christ our "Great God and Savior." Thomas, in John 20 calls Him "Lord of me and God of me!" The Spirit is also called God.

Mostly definitely the Shema is true and written specifically for the purpose of defining God.

Mark 12:29-30 ESV
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. [30] And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

As for the other verses, notice that the hypostatic union is not the purpose of the passage. This is similar to how Calvinists use an introduction or other passage to prove something the passage is not about.

And this is the problem. To find passages that say Jesus is God, one has to take passages which aren't there to explain the Trinity and use them to explain the Trinity.

Were the antichrists mentioned by John in 1 John 2:18 those who taught that Jesus was human or those who taught that Jesus was God?

 

[Hilltrot]

Could you show what exactly you think is different?

1 John 5:7 should not be there.

Look at the endings of Luke 3:22.

 

[Hilltrot]

:sigh: No, it is not pushed by only the KJVO crowd. I'm not KJVO. The truth isn't THAT complicated, the family trees of texts aren't an easy wade, but it is not that complicated. The two main lines of thought in all of Christendom are these: That the Byzantine texts are better, because they were recorded all the same thus 'right' or that the Alexandrian texts were, because they have 'less' than the other. It isn't more complicated than that but it is foolhardy to make doctrines that differ from one another out of that.



You are simply asserting. I didn't go "on and on" lain: You are already starting on a less than 'holy spirit' inspired direction. Why do cultists think they are following the Holy Spirit when they begin lacking grace? If this is the mark of your departure, you may want to examine it. If it isn't producing Godliness and a love for God's people, you are going the wrong direction, however 'right for you' it might seem to be. Take it as a warning flag.

Your short venture through those who posture over this is not academically accepted and is ad hoc.

See here and here IF you are open to being corrected. If not, there is no point to discussion. As you said, your mind is made up, regardless of facts and truth. God doesn't lead that way, however. He leads us to care and concern over the Body and points that unify us, not separates. Anytime you see 'separation' you should worry and question. I'm not part of the Catholic Church and have quite a bit of disagreement, but if my desire is not to see their holiness and walking with God, something isn't right. The Spirit produces holiness and, as with the Apostle Paul and Martin Luther, a deep love and longing for those who aren't getting it, to get it.

Ad hominins and projecting doesn't work against me.

Still waiting for your example before the 4th century.

 

[God's Truth]

1 John 5:7 should not be there.

Look at the endings of Luke 3:22.

You are going to have to spell it out and explain exactly what you think is different and wrong.

 

[Hilltrot]

It isn't the mystery they are adamant about. It is the scripture. I am adamant that John 1:1, 3,12; 20:28 are in my bible, whether anybody gets it or not.

In the first part of John, 'word' is capitalized in English translations. It is not suppose to be. In verses 2 and 3 'he' and 'him' were translated as it prior to the King James coming out. The proper translation is in fact 'it'. The translation is twisted to conform to the Trinitarian doctrine. John 1:12 is not trinitarian at all.

John 20:28 might be Trinitarian if Thomas said, "My lord who is God." But he didn't. He said, "My lord and my God." Two clearly separate people - Jesus his lord, and God who was revealed through Jesus.

 

[Hilltrot]

You are going to have to spell it out and explain exactly what you think is different and wrong.

We are at an impasse, I don't know how to make it any clearer. If you can ask a more specific question using the passages I have already given, I will provide more.

 

[Hilltrot]

:nono: You are incorrect and MUCH overstated again. There is no way to assert such a thing without indoctrination. There HAVE been speculations about those verses but the NIV, for instance, includes them BECAUSE they are not certain. You, in your unprofessional (not part of the translation profession) making claims otherwise? :nono: You are getting WAY too big for your proverbial britches. I've two degrees. I can tell by your posts, (can tell, mind you) that you have neither a language degree nor Bible degree. It shows. Your ignorance shows. You can move in any direction you like but your actual ignorance is showing and you aren't open to correction on this point. I'll leave you to your thread. I see it as a sham, when it is obvious you don't have the wherewithal. You are at a point where you should be 'listening' and not 'posturing' in your theology life. :wave: I cannot do anything with you until you are open to good instruction. Scripture is clear. Creeds are clear.

First, you're reinforcing my point #6 more and more. Instead of giving a reasoned response, you've responded with murderous intention. You have repeated your intent to have me excommunicated based on the fact that my beliefs are not you beliefs.

I was hoping for a more reasoned response, but you've given the response of a cage-stage Calvinist.

I am on the cusp of irrevocably renouncing the Trinity and you are trying to kick me off the edge. I will wait and look elsewhere to see if there are more reasonable responses.

I want to be clear:

I believe that Jesus was crucified and died and that God raised him from the dead.

Jesus is my lord.

The scripture is inspired by God.

If those in charge of the forum wish to excommunicate me by declaring me unChristian and moving me to the general section, so be it.

 

[God's Truth]

We are at an impasse, I don't know how to make it any clearer. If you can ask a more specific question using the passages I have already given, I will provide more.

You are the one who thinks the scriptures are with error. Tell me exactly where and what the error is.

How hard is that to understand?

I see scriptures you give that say the same thing but you say they say something else. WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS SAYING that is wrong or different?

 

[Hilltrot]

You are the one who thinks the scriptures are with error. Tell me exactly where and what the error is.

How hard is that to understand?

I see scriptures you give that say the same thing but you say they say something else. WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS SAYING that is wrong or different?

I never said the scriptures are in error.

 

[God's Truth]

In the first part of John, 'word' is capitalized in English translations. It is not suppose to be. In verses 2 and 3 'he' and 'him' were translated as it prior to the King James coming out. The proper translation is in fact 'it'. The translation is twisted to conform to the Trinitarian doctrine. John 1:12 is not trinitarian at all.

John 20:28 might be Trinitarian if Thomas said, "My lord who is God." But he didn't. He said, "My lord and my God." Two clearly separate people - Jesus his lord, and God who was revealed through Jesus.

Jesus is God the Father come as a son, a man in the flesh.

Jesus' spirit is the Spirit of God the Father come to live as a man.

 

[Hilltrot]

You are the one who thinks the scriptures are with error. Tell me exactly where and what the error is.

How hard is that to understand?

I see scriptures you give that say the same thing but you say they say something else. WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS SAYING that is wrong or different?

This is the correct version of 1 John 5:7-8

1 John 5:7-8 ESV
For there are three that testify: [8] the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

This is the correct version of Luke 3:22

Luke 3:22 ESV
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; today I have begotten you.”

 

[God's Truth]

I never said the scriptures are in error.

You did say that. You said people added to it.

 

[God's Truth]

This is the correct version of 1 John 5:7-8

1 John 5:7-8 ESV
For there are three that testify: [8] the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

This is the correct version of Luke 3:22

Luke 3:22 ESV
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; today I have begotten you.”

I see no difference.

 

[Hilltrot]

Jesus is God the Father come as a son, a man in the flesh.

Jesus' spirit is the Spirit of God the Father come to live as a man.

Is this oneness theology? Or your own personal theology?

It is an interesting idea but one which increases the problems and questions more than it solves in my opinion.

 

[Lon]

I am on the cusp of irrevocably renouncing the Trinity and you are trying to kick me off the edge. I will wait and look elsewhere to see if there are more reasonable responses.


If those in charge of the forum wish to excommunicate me by declaring me unChristian and moving me to the general section, so be it.

You aren't on the cusp, you are over. Look at your every post! There is no "okay, explain this to me" or "But I've found this, is this right?" None. :nono: There is no 'cusp' Hiltrot. I cannot argue you out of your response, you are already there. No amount of discussion is going to bring you back, you've set your stake and raised your gauntlet. How can I or anybody assail that???

If you are moved, it will be when you continue to posture without a shred of interest given to those 'attempting to bring you back from the brink.'

The thread will show what you are made of, but I'm convinced nothing I say, no scripture offered, no thread (all already given and unread) will be able to change your mind over these matters.

 

[Lon]

This is the correct version of 1 John 5:7-8

1 John 5:7-8 ESV
For there are three that testify: [8] the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

This is the correct version of Luke 3:22

Luke 3:22 ESV
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; today I have begotten you.”

Show me.
ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος και τὸ ῞Αγιον Πνεύμα, καὶ οὗτοι οι τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι·
καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οι μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ, τὸ Πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.

Who have you been studying with? Who got a hold of you before me? :think:

In the first part of John, 'word' is capitalized in English translations. It is not suppose to be. In verses 2 and 3 'he' and 'him' were translated as it prior to the King James coming out. The proper translation is in fact 'it'. The translation is twisted to conform to the Trinitarian doctrine. John 1:12 is not trinitarian at all.

John 20:28 might be Trinitarian if Thomas said, "My lord who is God." But he didn't. He said, "My lord and my God." Two clearly separate people - Jesus his lord, and God who was revealed through Jesus.

Again, show me:

᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν.

ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.

 

[Hilltrot]

You did say that. You said people added to it.

Yes people added and change the scripture into something else. The scripture itself is inspired. The additions and changes are clearly recognized and Biblical scholars agree. I am not discounting the scripture wholesale or picking and choosing only the passages I like. However, passages have different interpretations and well as different translations. The interpretation and translation is best done in the context of of the rest of the passage, Bible, and culture of the time.