ECT Principles of Spiritual Growth

[Jerry Shugart]

Some only come out by prayer and fasting. Paul lamented that he was the Chief of Sinners and I don't doubt his words. I don't know why his prayer wasn't answered, but we can ask him one day. Your dispensation theory, where did you get that from? I don't see it in my Bible.

When the Twelve were given the power to heal there is absolutely no evidence that anything limited that power:

"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where" (Lk.9;1-6).​

We can see that Paul was given special powers and even his hankerchiefs and aprons which he had touched cured diseases:

"And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).​

Then later Paul could not heal Epaphroditus when he lay sick nigh unto death by his side at Rome (Phil.2:27). During the present dispensation Paul left Trophimus lying sick at Miletum (2 Timothy 4:20).

Can you not even understand that a change in regard to the gift of healing changed at some point in time?

Your dispensation theory, where did you get that from? I don't see it in my Bible.

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace." And that did not happen until Acts 13.

On the other hand, the gospel of which the Lord spoke in the following passages was the gospel of the kingdom:

"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where" (Lk.9;1-6).​

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:15-18).​

When the gospel of the kingdom was being preached miracles abounded. But they began to fade away with the change of dispensations.

 

[northwye]

Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
I have a thread on this forum now - "ECT: The Fulfillment of Jeremiah 18: 1-6 In Ephesians 2: 11-13 and Romans 11: 17-20." Which deals with two New Testament scriptures which say that Gentiles are joined to "the Commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2: 12-13)" by the blood of Christ and that Gentiles who believe are grafted in to the root of the olive tree (Romans 11: 17) referring to the good olive tree of Romans 11: 24."

"You are totally confused because the verses which you cite proves no such thing. When Israel was in a covenant relationship with the LORD the Jews were a special people unto Him, above all the people on the face of the earth (Deut.7:6)."

Again, here on TOL, the response here to only a small section of post number 16 above suggests what is going on here on TOL is not just a debate over the postulates of dispensationalism. The starting postulates of dispensationalism are stated by its founders. I know that some here on TOL will say this is not their form of dispensationalism, that is, the statements by Lewis S. Chafer and others about dispensationalism making a separation between Old Covenant Israel and the Church are not their kind of dispensationalism.

I will cite some of those statements by the Founders of dispensationalism for others who might be reading this thread.

What seems to be happening here on TOl for some of the dispensationalists is that they are into the quarrel itself as their interest.

Paul points to something similar to what I am talking about in I Timothy 6: 20-21. Here Paul uses the Greek word which is used in the earlier Greek philosophy of the dialectic, which could be translated as the anti-thesis - αντιθεσεις.

Some of the dispensationalists here act like they are into the dialectic and are interested in their way of making an argument by using a form of the dialectic of argument and counter argument. They may not be aware themselves of what they are doing.

A reason I am suggesting this is because the small section of post number 16 quoted here is about the meaning of Ephesians 2: 11-13 and Romans 11: 17-20 - "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

And "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;.......Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"

Arguing against the meanings of these two New Testament scripture by saying "You are totally confused because the verses which you cite proves no such thing. When Israel was in a covenant relationship with the LORD the Jews were a special people unto Him, above all the people on the face of the earth (Deut.7:6)" Does not deal with what these two scriptures say about being brought close by the blood of Christ and about being grafted into the good olive tree (Romans 11: 24).

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Chafer, a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says of classical dispensationalism
that the: "basic primise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God
expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1966,
pp.44-45.

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two
distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan...These considerations
all arise from
a literal method of interpretation." (page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost,
Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965)....

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, here on TOL, the response here to only a small section of post number 16 above suggests what is going on here on TOL is not just a debate over the postulates of dispensationalism.

All you prove is that you are not capable of answering my point in an intelligent way. As usual, you never answer the other persons points. NEVER!

 

[Aimiel]

When the Twelve were given the power to heal there is absolutely no evidence that anything limited that power:

"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where" (Lk.9;1-6).​

We can see that Paul was given special powers and even his hankerchiefs and aprons which he had touched cured diseases:

"And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).​

Then later Paul could not heal Epaphroditus when he lay sick nigh unto death by his side at Rome (Phil.2:27). During the present dispensation Paul left Trophimus lying sick at Miletum (2 Timothy 4:20).

Can you not even understand that a change in regard to the gift of healing changed at some point in time?

Nope! Jesus Christ: The Same yesterday, today and forever. I don't see Him changing. I don't see any Scripture saying that He took back His Gifts to the church. I've seen too many things to think otherwise.

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace." And that did not happen until Acts 13.

On the other hand, the gospel of which the Lord spoke in the following passages was the gospel of the kingdom:

"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where" (Lk.9;1-6).​

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:15-18).​

When the gospel of the kingdom was being preached miracles abounded. But they began to fade away with the change of dispensations.

I don't see a time-limit there or any proof that we can't have the very same 'dispensation.' In point of fact: I believe that one can walk just as close to God as one seeks Him for. He said that we would find Him when we seek and search for Him with all of our hearts. Nowhere does it say in Scripture that we cannot have these things. In fact Jesus Himself said that we would do GREATER works than He did. I have yet to hear of anyone walking on water, but I don't doubt that will seem like a very small miracle compared to what those who walk closely with The Lord will do one day. No doubt whatsoever. I see it coming.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I've seen too many things to think otherwise.

Please tell me exactly what you saw.

 

[Aimiel]

Please tell me exactly what you saw.

I saw, he saw, she saw, they saw. You won't see because you don't believe. You don't see and then believe. You believe and then you see. If you don't understand that then you don't have the very first principle of faith. Faith is the evidence of things NOT seen. What I have seen has been MY experience. Another's experience will never be enough for others. It is why we are individuals to begin with. I've seen many things, done many things (by The Power of The One Who lives in me) and have faith to see far more than most have even begun to imagine, because these things have been revealed to me by His Spirit. If you want to have faith to move mountains, you have to come to know Him, not just know things ABOUT Him. Religion leads nowhere. If you want to get close to Jesus you have to jump off of the boat of religion and get out on the water by faith and come directly to Him. Eyes on men and staying established in the muddy rut of religion will cause you to stagnate and produce NOTHING. He is The Author and Finisher of your faith but you don't seem to trust Him. You trust what you've presumed is Truth ABOUT Him, but it isn't even true. You have simply accepted a seemingly logical position of 'dispensation' that was taught to you that is further from Truth than you realize. Wake UP!!!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I saw, he saw, she saw, they saw. You won't see because you don't believe. You don't see and then believe. You believe and then you see.

You remind me of the following people:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man" (Jn.2:24-25).​

 

[Aimiel]

I've testified of Him since I was saved at 13 years of age at Grace Missionary Baptist Church in Norwood, Ohio in 1968. I had no more proof of Him than the Easter Bunny, but I knew that I knew in my heart that every Word in Scripture was Truth. I've known that all my life. No one told me, I just knew. I believe that faith is from Him. I know I'm not good enough or smart enough to know the things I know in my heart to be true. He put that faith in me. I see miracles because I take Him at His Word. He doesn't lie and He certainly doesn't give gifts and then take them back.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I've testified of Him since I was saved at 13 years of age at Grace Missionary Baptist Church in Norwood, Ohio in 1968. I had no more proof of Him than the Easter Bunny, but I knew that I knew in my heart that every Word in Scripture was Truth. I've known that all my life. No one told me, I just knew. I believe that faith is from Him. I know I'm not good enough or smart enough to know the things I know in my heart to be true. He put that faith in me. I see miracles because I take Him at His Word. He doesn't lie and He certainly doesn't give gifts and then take them back.

You said that you have seen miracles of some sort but when I asked you to say what you saw you provided nothing.

Why is that?

 

[Aimiel]

You said that you have seen miracles of some sort but when I asked you to say what you saw you provided nothing.

Why is that?

I don't know that describing the healings or deliverances I've seen would do you any good, since you don't believe that God can do such things today. I couldn't begin to describe the prophecies I've received or given without you saying that they're not from God; so again: I couldn't describe the words of knowledge or words of wisdom I've spoken or the other visitations or miraculous things I've seen in my 50 years of being Christian. All told, my story would take probably several days just to speak about what I've seen, not to mention the things God has done in my life that I haven't even found out about yet. His miracles happen every day, but if one wishes to turn a blind eye to them, God's not going to twist your arm.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't know that describing the healings or deliverances I've seen would do you any good, since you don't believe that God can do such things today.

I never said that the LORD couldn't do the super natural things which are mentioned at Mark 16:17-18. Instead, I said that He is not doing them during this dispensation. But he doing miracles greater to those mentioned at Mark 16 today when people are born of God and become children of God upon hearing and believing the gospel.

I couldn't begin to describe the prophecies I've received or given without you saying that they're not from God; so again: I couldn't describe the words of knowledge or words of wisdom I've spoken or the other visitations or miraculous things I've seen in my 50 years of being Christian. All told, my story would take probably several days just to speak about what I've seen...

Why can't you begin to describe the prophecies which you have received or the miraculous things you have seen?

You don't have to tell us about all of them but surely you can tell us about some of them.

 

[Aimiel]

I never said that the LORD couldn't do the super natural things which are mentioned at Mark 16:17-18. Instead, I said that He is not doing them during this dispensation. But he doing miracles greater to those mentioned at Mark 16 today when people are born of God and become children of God upon hearing and believing the gospel.

I don't believe that is what Jesus meant when He said that we'd do greater works than He did. He, in point of fact, brought the thief next to Him on the cross to Paradise the day He was crucified and for us to do a greater miracle than that would be a miracle worth saying was greater than what He's done.

Why can't you begin to describe the prophecies which you have received or the miraculous things you have seen?

I told you why: it's because of your un-belief. You said God is NOT doing such things, so I have to acquiesce to your will.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I told you why: it's because of your un-belief. You said God is NOT doing such things, so I have to acquiesce to your will.

Since you claim to have seen many miracles then why wouln't you want to share them with others so that those people might be convinced and change their minds?

 

[Aimiel]

Since you claim to have seen many miracles then why wouln't you want to share them with others so that those people might be convinced and change their minds?

That would be worthless. Thinking that seeing is believing is exactly the opposite of how God planned faith. He says that believing is seeing. He doesn't do miracles so that people believe that He can do miracles. He does miracles because people believe that He can, even though they've never seen one. It takes now faith, even for those of us who've seen the miraculous (even more so, because we tend to rely upon what we've seen before) and it becomes a new experience every time since God never shows up the same way twice. Those who believe because they see always fall away.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He does miracles because people believe that He can, even though they've never seen one. It takes now faith, even for those of us who've seen the miraculous (even more so, because we tend to rely upon what we've seen before) and it becomes a new experience every time since God never shows up the same way twice. Those who believe because they see always fall away.

I believe that the LORD can certainly do miracles but I have never seen any like the ones described at Mark 16:17-18 although I have seen many people try to fake those miracles. I go by what the Scriptures say. For instance, the Apostles were commanded by the Lord Jesus to heal and Paul was given special powers and even his handkerchiefs and aprons which he had touched cured diseases:

"And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).​

Then later Paul could not heal Epaphroditus when he lay sick nigh unto death by his side at Rome (Phil.2:27). During the present dispensation Paul left Trophimus lying sick at Miletum (2 Timothy 4:20).

Why would Paul not heal his friends and fellow Christians if he had the power to do so?

 

[northwye]

"And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).

Then later Paul could not heal Epaphroditus when he lay sick nigh unto death by his side at Rome (Phil.2:27). During the present dispensation Paul left Trophimus lying sick at Miletum (2 Timothy 4:20)."

This is carrying the dispensationalist division of time periods during which different dispensationa are in place too far.

Lets look at New Testament translations earlier than the King James Version for the translation of Oikonomia.

See: https://craigcfisher.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/353/

"Ephesians 3: 2: "If netheles ye han herd the dispensacioun of Godd is grace, that is youun to me in you."

This is from Wycliffe’s Bible, of about 1382, which is a Catholic English translation of the Latin Vulgate New Testament.

"The English word dispensation or Old English dispensacioun is from the Latin dispensatio."

Here is William Tyndale's translations of oikonomia in his New Testament of about 1526:

Ephesians 1: 9-10: "And hath opened unto us the mystery of his will according to his pleasure, and purposed 10 the same in himself to have it declared when the time were full come: that all things, both the things which are in heaven, and also the things which are in earth, should be gathered together, even in Christ."

I am not sure which English word for Tyndale's translation of Ephesians 1: 10. It might be time for oikonomia.

Ephesians 3: 2-5: " If ye have heard of the ministration of the grace of God which is given me to you ward - 3 For by revelation showed he this mystery unto me, as I wrote above in few words, 4 whereby, when ye read ye may know mine understanding in the mystery of Christ, 5 which mystery in times past was not opened unto the sons of men as it is now declared unto his holy apostles and prophets by the spirit:"

Ministration is the Tyndale translation of oikonomia.

Colossians 1: 24-26: "Now joy I in my sufferings which I suffer, for you; and fulfill that which is behind of the passions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the congregation - 25 whereof am I made a minister according to the ordinance of God, which ordinance was given me unto you ward, to fulfill the word of God: 26 that mystery, hid since the world began, and since the beginning of generations: But now is opened to his saints,"

Ordinance is the Tyndale translation of oikonomia here.

These our New Testament scriptures which use oikonomia by Tyndale are from https://studybible.info/MSTC/Colossians

Tyndale broke with the Catholic Wycliffe translation of oikonomia as dispensation.

Remember that Tyndale does not use a consistent translation of oikonomia, but uses office, ministration and ordinance.

From Wycliffe’s Bible, of about 1382, which is a Catholic English translation of the Latin Vulgate New Testament, "The English word dispensation or Old English dispensacioun is from the Latin dispensatio."

Just as the Wycliffe Catholic English Bible of 1382 translated ekklesia as chirche (in old English spelling), and
Tyndale broke from the Catholic translation of ekklesia and used congregation consistently, so Tyndale did not follow the Catholic translation of oikonomia as "dispensation." This is interesting.

I do not know whether or not there are valid reasons why the Catholic Church might have supported the translation of oikonomia as dispensation. But I do understand the reasons why the Catholics wanted to use church as the translation of ekklesia. The use of Church would support the rule of a clergy class of priests over the people (I Peter 5: 2-3) more that would Tyndale's congregation for ekklesia. Yet it is interesting that dispensationalism insists on following the Geneva Bible and the King James translation of oikonomia and would reject the Tyndale translations of oikonomia.

Note that William Tyndale has credentials as a single Textus Receptus translator.

"It will be seen that in these nine chapters more than 83% of the words in the Geneva Version were taken direct from Tyndale, and more than 81% of the words in the King James Version. I believe this sample is statistically valid for the whole New Testament and those books of the Old Testament that Tyndale translated." See: http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/King-James-Version-is-99-Percent-Tyndales.html

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is carrying the dispensationalist division of time periods during which different dispensationa are in place too far.

What do you think is the proper way that oikonomia should be translated?

What do you think Paul was referring to when he wrote of the "oikonomia of the grace of God" (Eph.3:2)?

 

[Aimiel]

Why would Paul not heal his friends and fellow Christians if he had the power to do so?

Paul never had any power. God is The Healer. He is still in the healing business. You don't have to believe Him. His healing is available to you, but He won't force you to avail yourself of it.

 

[northwye]

https://biblehub.com/greek/3622.htm

"3622, οἰκονομίία oikonomia: stewardship, administration, management of household affairs, stewardship, administration."

"Colossians 1:25
GRK: κατὰ τὴν οἰκονομίαν τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: according to the stewardship from God
KJV: according to the dispensation of God
INT: according to the administration of God"

Tyndale translation of Colossians 1: 25: "whereof am I made a minister according to the ordinance of God, which ordinance was given me unto you ward, to fulfill the word of God."

Ordinance is the Tyndale translation of oikonomia for Colossians 1: 25

The question again that interests me is whether the use of the word "dispensacioun" in the Wycliffe Bible, of about 1382, which is a Catholic English translation of the Latin Vulgate New Testament, reflects a Catholic interest in the use of "dispensacioun." Did the Catholics have some reason for using "dispensacioun," and did some authority after the death of Calvin, such as Theodore Beza, prefer the use of dispensation rather than Tyndale's translations of oikonomia? The Geneva Bible, which came before the King James Version, uses dispensation consistently for oikonomia. An earlier translation by Beza had an influence upon the Geneva Bible translation group.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul never had any power. God is The Healer. He is still in the healing business. You don't have to believe Him. His healing is available to you, but He won't force you to avail yourself of it.

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus commanded his Apostles to heal?