Aimiel
Well-known member
I have NO idea what you mean by that.
God still uses dreams, visions, signs, wonders and miracles, since He never changes. He's given us His Word on that.
ECT Principles of Spiritual Growth
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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glorydaz
Well-known member
I mean you're boasting. Boasting is excluded by the law of Faith.
Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Oh, so you mean He still sends down manna from heaven?
Or maybe he still requires animal sacrifices?
Aimiel
Well-known member
You think I was boasting, because The Name of Jesus gives me power over all that of the enemy? If I am boasting it is only that my God is stronger than the god of this world.
I don't believe that is necessary, but I do believe that Jesus is The Living Manna, Who gives us all things that we need.
You and I both know that Jesus was symbolized by every animal sacrifice God called for and that sacrifice was done away with on Calvary, where Jesus gave His Life to be able to give us power over ALL the power of the enemy. Right now He's seated at His Father's Right Hand, expecting until His enemies be made into His Footstool. He's not going to do so, we have to do it. The last enemy that will be destroyed is Death. He expects us to rise up under His Banner of Love and join with one another in the unity of the faith unto a perfect man in the fullness of His Power and bring all of His enemies into subjection. It's a tough job, but someone's gotta' do it. One day: we shall. :thumb:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
But you said that God gives all people faith.
Now you are saying thzt He gives everyone a chance to have faith.
Can you not tell the difference?
Aimiel
Well-known member
That is what I believe. It's inferred in Scripture.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
That's one of my favorite passages of Scripture. The best part is: "...so that they are without excuse." They have knowledge of God, being plainly seen, but they ignore that knowledge because they've darkened their hearts.
I have no idea what you're asking. Are you always so cryptic?
glorydaz
Well-known member
And where do you find that claim?
God's strength...not your strength or power and no reason for you to boast personally.
You claimed God never changes. Clearly He is changing His rules.
No, man can't handle that kind of power. We are to trust totally in Him....with the whole Armour of God as our protection. The Armour of God and the Fruit of the Spirit do NOT come from us. The power is not given to us. How do I know that? Because HIS STRENGTH is made perfect in our WEAKNESS.
2 Cor. 12:9-10 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
We are to preach the Gospel of Salvation to the lost. We are not to be healers and miracle workers which has never won anyone to God. You are failing to do what the Body is meant to do if you're counting on the sign gifts.
Your belief doesn't make it true.
The Great Commission was given to the Twelve and yet they agreed with Paul to stay in Jerusalem (Gal. 2:7-9).
Why?
You have got to be kidding me!
Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
What you've done here is basically to admit that you believe your doctrine over what the bible clearly states even down to the very words that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself uttered. What is the point of that?
If the meaning of scripture is so plastic that "before the Son of Man comes" can be turned into "before you all die of old age or are murdered" then you might as well go join the Branch Davidian Cult and pray to David Koresh and wait for his return because you'd have exactly as much ground to declare their doctrine false and you have for your own.
In fact, why bother with the bible at all?
Seriously, on what basis could a syllable of your doctrine ever be falsified?
That's a question that you both need to seriously consider the answer to and that you won't give three seconds of time thinking about.
Aimiel
Well-known member
The Holy Scriptures:
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.[QUOTE]God's strength...not your strength or power and no reason for you to boast personally. [/QUOTE]Amen. If I appeared to boast of my own accomplishments, it was my mistake... but I give ALL glory to God.
He changed the game when He instituted The New Covenant in Person in His Own Blood.
I can do ALL things through Christ, Who strengthens me. Why are you trying to sell me your in-belief? Someone who's knows genuine won't accept counterfeit.
I count on The One Who lives in me, Who is My Lord and My God: Jesus. If I'm failing Him, He lets me know, believe me.
glorydaz
Well-known member
So this is the power you claim for yourself?
Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
"Nothing shall by any means hurt you." Is that your claim?
This is why you claim you have healed the sick?
Luke 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
So, you admit He changed the game in some respects, but deny He has done so in others? :think:
All things we are meant to do in this dispensation of Grace. You certainly can't give sight to the blind, or cause the lame to walk, or move mountains, or part the seas, or walk on water, etc.
I'm merely encouraging you to rightly divide the word of God. I've had to do so in my own walk.
To claim what is not meant for the Body of Christ to perform turns people away from the Gospel of Grace. Simple as that.
He's letting you know right now as we study the Scripture....understanding what it actually says.
Aimiel
Well-known member
No, you're attempting to show me what you don't believe, but not what (according to Scripture) the Truth is. I don't hold to mis-applied Scripture or other un-belief.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Of course you do, and you hold on so tightly, you miss the fact that the rules have changed. Knowing when and why they changed is where you will find the greatest treasure of all.
But, you would rather cling to the notion that you have the same power the Apostles and the seventy had before the MYSTERY of the Body of Christ was even revealed to Paul. You refuse to see that things have changed.
Luke 9:1-2 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
You want to affiliate with the House of Israel. You don't belong there.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
We are of the household of faith.
Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Aimiel
Well-known member
That's all well and good, but I don't believe that twelve men (or thirteen for that matter), constitute EVERY MAN...
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The manifestation of The Holy Spirit is given to EVERY MAN in The Holy Scriptures and that is what I hold tightly to: The Holy Scriptures. Every man means whomsoever will submit to The Lord and whomsoever The Lord chooses to manifest these gifts to. There's no expiration date or 'dispensation' that limits the gifts which were given to EVERY MAN in the household of faith. We have faith in The Holy Spirit, Who is alive and well, in spite of those who ignore Him and have never sought God to manifest His Gifts in their lives.
If you want to associate yourself with faith then have faith in everything that God wants to give you. He not only wants to give to you from the nine Gifts and Ministries of The Holy Spirit, He also wants to give to you from the Five-fold Ministry Gifts:
Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.
These are in operation, even unto this day. :thumb:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes indeed, these ARE in operation today.
Notice they are all for edification of the Body, and nothing miraculous about them whatsoever.
Eph. 1:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph. 1:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
Eph. 1:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
On the other hand, the sign gifts from Corinthians were for a particular purpose and time. These babes and carnal with the Jews among them, were given the sign gifts. Not to profit the church, but as a sign to unbelievers that the Gentiles, too were given the Spirit.
1 Cor. 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But they would be putting away those "childish things", which were no profit to the Body.
1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1 Cor. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1 Cor. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
Aimiel
Well-known member
I guess I'm just not seeing the 'restrictions' in The Holy Scriptures that you seem to imagine are there. I don't buy that God's Gifts to The Body of Christ are childish. They require someone who's mature just to walk in them, not a babe in Christ; so the whole premise falls apart right there, beside the fact that there isn't any 'dispensation' that did away with New Testament blessings and gifts. We're going to have believe Scripture, not some windy doctrine, designed to steer us away from The Living God.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 'till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
We have not yet ALL come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of The Son of God or yet been perfected. This would require that every person who will ever be saved to be IN Christ AND to be perfect (in their in-corruptible body) which won't happen until after the rapture, the Great Tribulation and even AFTER the millennial reign of Christ. At that time: there will be no more acting like children, being tossed to and fro or falling for false doctrines or even any deception. At that point every soul will know God, even as God knows us. Prophecy will cease, because every man will know the mind of God and knowledge won't be necessary because we'll already know God and see Him Face-to-face. Until that day: His Gifts and Ministries will not only be a blessing and a joy but as we begin to see more and more sin abound upon the earth they'll become necessary, just to survive.
I have a friend who is a missionary in China, who's been there almost 20 years now. She told me of groups of Christians she ministered with who would hold meetings and they would not plan them. God would speak to them and tell them where to hold the meeting and when. The groups saw every member, every week; who showed up where and when God told them to go. If they were not led there by God, they wouldn't know when and where the meetings were being held. This kept them out of prison so that they could evangelize and pass out Bibles without being caught. Were there no words of knowledge given by The Holy Ghost, there would have been a lot of dead or imprisoned Christians. As darkness grows, His Gifts and Ministries are going to become more and more important.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm not seeing the blind and the lame being healed. Have you unbent any legs, such as those miracles performed by the Apostles? No, you claim healings that cannot be seen. Placebos do the same.
Yet you can't see the Corinthians were an immature group? Why are tongues not mentioned by Paul with teachers in Eph.4? Things that differ....but you ignore them. Why?
Wrong. You're reading into that text something that isn't there. Members of the Body of Christ are complete in Christ Jesus RIGHT NOW.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
You're claiming mature believers still act like children...tossed to and fro? Paul tells us otherwise. This NEW MAN is NOT referring to a new resurrected body. Those who have been created in Christ Jesus have been perfected right here on earth. The sign gifts are no longer evidenced among the BODY of Christ.
Eph. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind. 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Now you're conflating the sign gifts with the work of the Spirit. Those aren't "words of knowledge". The Holy Spirit leads and guides....the still small voice is not a sign gift being performed by members of the Body.
What they require is humility, a humility that makes one understand that they may only have one, or two of those gifts, and not to presuppose what those gifts might be until they are revealed. And it may also well be that the girt is the gift of suffering, a gift many Christians today do not fathom as an actual gift. Do you know about St. Bernadette Soubirous?
There is nothing that irks me more then seeing some people talking gibberish and believing that they are speaking in tongues. Tongues is a rare miracle, not something done at a time of ones choosing.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I don't have to see something to believe that it is available. Those who don't have faith in God won't believe in Him even if they see miracles. Just ask Jesus how those in Nazareth treated Him when He went there.
I agree, but not physically. They need to put on in-corruptible in order to BE perfect. As of now, what Scripture was referring to was that we are seen by God as perfect. His Blood cleanses us of un-righteousness but we are still in fallen bodies. When we see Him Face-to-face we will then be perfect as He is perfect. Thinking that we are perfect now is twisting Scripture to fit the dispensation heresy nonsense.
I've never met a perfect Christian yet. I've never seen a perfect church. The sign gifts have not stopped, in spite of your denial, which isn't supported by Scripture.
I don't think that the gifts and ministries of The Holy Spirit are necessarily for 'signs' as you've presumed. I see them as just what they are: gifts. God knows how to give good gifts to His Children. He doesn't give them, announce their existence and then take them away. He gives them and they're available. You don't have to partake of them, however your un-belief and that of those who subscribe to dispensationalism will, just like every idle word you've ever spoken, will require that you give an account for what you said and what you prevented by not taking God at His Word. The heresies we're allowing today are ridiculous. The lie of dispensationalism is a small one (IMHO) compared to idolatry of the RCC and other religions, who pretend to speak for God. They're hurting God more than helping in my opinion. When we grow up and come together as Scripture declares; we will be a force to be reckoned with. Until that day, we have to limp along in our current state.
Aimiel
Well-known member
It also takes submission, but you are correct about humility. Humility is the currency of Heaven.