Does God choose us to be conformed to his will or do we of free will choice choose God?
ECT Predestination or Free Will
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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turbosixx
New member
Paul sure seemed to think men have free will.
Rom. 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I believe that, at some level, we freely choose God - in other words, it isn't some coerced decision that violates our will. But only by the heart inclined towards God. We are so superficial in our assessment of ourselves (and others) that we confuse tastes for nature. I may have a taste for a certain food and a strong distaste for another. But if I recognize that some food is good for me, I may override that taste and eat contrary to it. Over that, we have great control. But when it comes to the heart (as scripture uses the term) I don't believe we have that same control. It is what it is. Our nature (naturally speaking) is what it is and not only are we as unable to change it as a leopard is its spots, but we simply cannot operate contrary to it. That, in part, is why the declarations of Jesus are so damning to us - they show us that we cannot, of ourselves, choose Him (nor do we naturally want to).
Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:21-22
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:38-48
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 15:18-19
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 18:32-35
This is the same heart found here :
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9
Proof? If one cannot do all that Jesus commanded and abstain from all the evil He proscribed (see above for just a sample), then how can one say one can freely choose Christ? Unless one does all that naturally, one does not (naturally - note the root "nature") choose Christ.
Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Matthew 15:13
(Not very Christian of Jesus to try and convince the Pharisees to choose Him, was it?)
It seems to me that the wickedness of the heart is testimony against its own inability (indeed, lack of desire) to choose Christ. And the one who is in that condition naturally, has no inclination to please Christ. He may have an inclination to do that which externally seems good, but does he have a true, inward desire for righteousness? Not unless the Lord works in the heart. Even the ways we think are righteous are not.
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Proverbs 14:12 (or Proverbs 16:25)
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I believe believers' Sanctification (conformance to the will of God) is as monergistic as Justification. Ephesians 2:10; John 15:5.
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Ephesians 2:10; Indeed, God did prepare the "good works" for the new born of Him to walk in because He is the Vine and I am but a branch (John 15:5 KJV) IF I am born again. I need to remember that at all times that I act not in presumption.
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Jedidiah
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You show me the difference between those two things, and I'll answer, because for all I can tell you just asked if up is up. Yes, yes it is.
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His choosing for what purpose depends upon His foreknowledge. However, even then do we retain our ability to change our mind. But of course, God knows that as well to make adjustments in His guiding us because He desires all men to come to the knowledge of Him. But, . . "We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world."
Romans 9:18 (NASB)
1 John 4:16,17 (NASB)
It is called destination because it is a certain determination of the order of means to the end
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Determined by whom?
God determined what their final end would be -- and that He did so before they were ever born
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Naah! Then time means nothing for the purpose of allowing man to come to this senses and even for the saved to, "work out their salvation in fear and trembling". Throw out your commentaries.
heir
TOL Subscriber
It's God's will that all men be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV). You can either trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ and be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) or believe not and be blinded (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV).
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Free will puts grace into man's power, not man's will under the power of grace.
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Who said so? Not only that but, whoever it was tell him he's wrong. God has never overrules man's will when it comes to deciding for Him?
We are elected unto obedience, through the "sanctification of the Spirit" (1Pe 1:2)