Right Divider
Body part
So we no longer have a trustworthy set of documents?
We could only trust the originals?
Yes, I know the history and the objections.
The "errors" that most people calls errors are nothing of the sort.
Please someone answer me this;
- Thread starter Bee1
- Start date
We could only trust the originals?
Yes, I know the history and the objections.
The "errors" that most people calls errors are nothing of the sort.
Right Divider,
re: "Go ahead and try."
OK, I'll start.
Matthew 28:1-10 says that when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb that she was told by an angel that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee. Matthew then says that she ran "with great joy" to tell the disciples and while on the way that she met the Messiah (this occurred before she got to the disciples).
However, John 20:1 and 2 say that when she came to the tomb and didn’t find the Messiah there, that she ran to the disciples and told them that He had been taken away and that she didn’t know where He was. In Matthew she knew where He was (or at least had been) and where He would be, but in John she didn’t.
How can this be reconciled?
re: "Go ahead and try."
OK, I'll start.
Matthew 28:1-10 says that when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb that she was told by an angel that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee. Matthew then says that she ran "with great joy" to tell the disciples and while on the way that she met the Messiah (this occurred before she got to the disciples).
However, John 20:1 and 2 say that when she came to the tomb and didn’t find the Messiah there, that she ran to the disciples and told them that He had been taken away and that she didn’t know where He was. In Matthew she knew where He was (or at least had been) and where He would be, but in John she didn’t.
How can this be reconciled?
I didn't say that.
No, we can trust what we have today.
Perhaps a better word is "discrepancy".
I'm sure you're familiar with http://kgov.com/kjo, but Bob does talk about this subject on there.
I'll take one of the first obvious ones:
The flood. Genesis 6
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.
The flood, Genesis 7:
2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.
How many of every kind of bird did Noah take?
You know... if you take things out of context, it's going to cause you problems, especially when it comes to TWO completely separate commands given by God, given at two different points in time....
Let's look at BOTH passages within the full context of each other, from verse 19 of chapter six, continuously to verse 5 of chapter seven.
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. 21 And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them.” 22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did.
7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. 2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; 3 also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.” 5 And Noah did according to all that the Lord commanded him.
Do you see the problem with your argument yet?
If God told Noah at one point to take two of every kind of animal onto the ark, and then at another time, told Him to bring seven pairs of every clean and one pair of every unclean animal, does that mean that God contradicted Himself? or perhaps He was adding on to what He had already said?
That’s not true, but you can believe it if you want to. Many people do when they have vested interest. It’s a type of confirmation bias, because you only see what you want to see.
Anyway...an error is an error. But I’d like to ask if you think it would be kind of a big error if the Bible were confused between God and the devil? That seems a really big “oops” to me. I mean, how could someone confuse God and the devil?
The Bible has two accounts of David’s sin numbering Israel and they are in different books. One account says God caused David to sin, and the other says Satan did it. But accounts are quite clear, about who caused David to sin that way.
What do you think about that?
Perhaps you could provide the passages in question, seeing as you're the one making the assertion....
You're not aware of those passages? No, I won't be looking them up....I'm quite certain I'm correct because I've proved it before.
Not judging or anything....but I thought you believe the bible is the Word of God? It seems odd to me that a person who believes the bible is the Word of God doesn't know what's in it or how to look up passages in it.
I mean, if you actually believe that you are holding God's words in your hands, and you're a believer in God....why would you put it down? What else could compare to that? It seems such a one would have it memorized by now, or nearly.
Anyway....I have work in the morning and I'm going to bed. Additionally, this site frequently locks me out for fifteen minutes at a time claiming I've entered an incorrect password or username. It keeps happening over and over again. So, if I don't post as much its because I work for a living and I don't have time to try and spend an hour to log into this site.
If I was, do you think I would be asking?
So, you're not really all that interested in an honest discussion then?
Anyone can make a claim. It takes guts to back up one's claim. You apparently don't have any, because this is how many times now where you've been asked to substantiate your claims, and you have refused to do so.
Saying it doesn't make it so....
As we've told you multiple times before.
You said:
Maybe you should look in a mirror some time and evaluate what you see.
If you would like to participate in this discussion, then please substantiate your claims, specifically the passages you mentioned.
If not, then please do not post in this thread anymore, and don't bother replying to this post either.
If you continue to post in threads and refuse to back up your claims when asked, I'm going to ban you for being a troll.
I am aware of that potential explanation- which is why I chose to look at the birds, not the other animals. One could argue that the special instructions for the clean vs. unclean animals was a clarification or expansion of the original instructions. That is exactly what you did. But that doesn't work for the birds. There is no mention of clean vs. unclean birds, or any division of the birds into different categories.
There is a mention of clean birds later on, chapter 8, when Noah sacrifices:
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it.
But no such division between clean and unclean birds are made in the original instructions.
The story of Noah and the flood is one of the sections of the Bible that lead people to think that the text is actually a combination of earlier texts. Think about it- Genesis 6 and 7 are basically the same story repeated twice with different details.
2 Samuel 24 New International Version (NIV)
David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”
1 Chronicles 21 New International Version (NIV)
David Counts the Fighting Men
21 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, “Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are.”
Do you not consider "birds" as "animals"?
Read the passage again:
| 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. 21 And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them.” 22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did. 7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. 2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; 3 also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.” 5 And Noah did according to all that the Lord commanded him. |
Pay attention to the wording of what is said in chapter 7.
Again, my question to you is, "Do you not consider birds to be animals?"
So... in order to not loose sight of the subject of discussion... how does that make the story of the flood as rendering the Bible invalid?
My position is that the Bible was perfect in it's original manuscripts, and that discrepancies have crept in, but none that would change the overall story and purpose of the Bible.
Supra.
THANK YOU for not being a troll and providing the requested passages.
Question for you, Chair:
Did God create Satan (at least, according to the Bible)?
Bee1
New member
Another example would be Paul/Saul epiphany on his way to Damascus, where three different accounts are told.
First Acts 9:3-8 His men did not see the light but heard a voice and remained standing.
Second Acts 22:6-11 This time his men saw the light but did not hear a voice
Third Acts 26:13-19 Now his men neither saw nor heard anything but fell down.
Now tell me this is God's handiwork?
First Acts 9:3-8 His men did not see the light but heard a voice and remained standing.
Second Acts 22:6-11 This time his men saw the light but did not hear a voice
Third Acts 26:13-19 Now his men neither saw nor heard anything but fell down.
Now tell me this is God's handiwork?
oatmeal
Well-known member
For the most part, Israel rejected God with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, therefore God let them wander in the desert until the unbelievers died off,
Numbers 14:1 And all the congregation lifted up their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night.
2 And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!
3 And wherefore hath the Lord brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? were it not better for us to return into Egypt?
4 And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.
5 Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.
6 And Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of them that searched the land, rent their clothes:
7 And they spake unto all the company of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land.
8 If the Lord delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.
9 Only rebel not ye against the Lord, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the Lord is with us: fear them not.
10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.
11 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
13 And Moses said unto the Lord, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them
14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
15 Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,
16 Because the Lord was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.
17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
18 The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
20 And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.
22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
25 (Now the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwelt in the valley.) Tomorrow turn you, and get you into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea.
26 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
35 I the Lord have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.
36 And the men, which Moses sent to search the land, who returned, and made all the congregation to murmur against him, by bringing up a slander upon the land,
37 Even those men that did bring up the evil report upon the land, died by the plague before the Lord.
38 But Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of the men that went to search the land, lived still.
39 And Moses told these sayings unto all the children of Israel: and the people mourned greatly.
40 And they rose up early in the morning, and gat them up into the top of the mountain, saying, Lo, we be here, and will go up unto the place which the Lord hath promised: for we have sinned.
41 And Moses said, Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of the Lord? but it shall not prosper.
42 Go not up, for the Lord is not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies.
43 For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from the Lord, therefore the Lord will not be with you.
44 But they presumed to go up unto the hill top: nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and Moses, departed not out of the camp.
45 Then the Amalekites came down, and the Canaanites which dwelt in that hill, and smote them, and discomfited them, even unto Hormah.
Numbers 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
Joshua 14:10 And now, behold, the Lord hath kept me alive, as he said, these forty and five years, even since the Lord spake this word unto Moses, while the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness: and now, lo, I am this day fourscore and five years old.
Who are you even talking to?
The question isn't what you or I consider the word "animal" to mean. The question is what does the Bible (in Hebrew) use the term to mean. Genesis six has an inclusive term "all living things", and subcategories: animals, birds, and "creature that moves upon the ground". This is clear in the Hebrew as well. So "animals" does not include birds or creeping things. The KJV translates the Hebrew "Behema" as "cattle", not animal, which is closer to the Hebrew.
It doesn't make it "invalid". It does mean that it is not literally "God's word". And it is not perfect.
As you basically admit in your next sentence:
So you are thinking of a once-upon-a-time perfect God's Word Bible that no longer exists. There is no way to prove that, and
since it doesn't exist, it isn't of much use.
I do agree that an imperfect Bible is OK.
I am an OT person, and the OT says very little about Satan. I would assume that God created Satan (and not that Satan has some real independent power and can challenge God, as some think). You want to excuse the discrepancy in the text by saying, well, since Satan was created by God, it's the same as if God did it. Then why are the texts different?
I'll reply to the above later.
I want to focus on this for a second.
It says quite a bit about him.
I didn't ask you to assume anything. I asked you what the Bible says.
:thumb:
:AMR:
Incorrect. You're getting ahead of me. See below.
Because the passages were written by two different men.
----
Back to the question I asked and the answer you gave.
Me: Did God create Satan?
You: [tentative "yes"]
Next question: Did God create the universe and it's physical laws?
Bee1
New member
Ok let me start by saying that someone made a comment about the numbers be exaggerated, that could answer some questions regarding the Exodus but still you have no evidence that a large group of men, women,children and livestock lived in the desert for 40 years. I made a comment about no graves being found and someone answered that the Israelites carried their dead for 40 years but you answered the question for us. Those that spoke ill of God died, "their bodies laid waste". So why haven't some of these (at of least 2 million people not including livestock) bodies be found?For the most part, Israel rejected God with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, therefore God let them wander in the desert until the unbelievers died off,
Numbers 14:1 And all the congregation lifted up their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night.
2 And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!
3 And wherefore hath the Lord brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? were it not better for us to return into Egypt?
4 And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.
5 Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.
6 And Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of them that searched the land, rent their clothes:
7 And they spake unto all the company of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land.
8 If the Lord delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.
9 Only rebel not ye against the Lord, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the Lord is with us: fear them not.
10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.
11 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
13 And Moses said unto the Lord, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them
14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
15 Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,
16 Because the Lord was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.
17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
18 The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
20 And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.
22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
25 (Now the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwelt in the valley.) Tomorrow turn you, and get you into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea.
26 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
35 I the Lord have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.
36 And the men, which Moses sent to search the land, who returned, and made all the congregation to murmur against him, by bringing up a slander upon the land,
37 Even those men that did bring up the evil report upon the land, died by the plague before the Lord.
38 But Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of the men that went to search the land, lived still.
39 And Moses told these sayings unto all the children of Israel: and the people mourned greatly.
40 And they rose up early in the morning, and gat them up into the top of the mountain, saying, Lo, we be here, and will go up unto the place which the Lord hath promised: for we have sinned.
41 And Moses said, Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of the Lord? but it shall not prosper.
42 Go not up, for the Lord is not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies.
43 For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from the Lord, therefore the Lord will not be with you.
44 But they presumed to go up unto the hill top: nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and Moses, departed not out of the camp.
45 Then the Amalekites came down, and the Canaanites which dwelt in that hill, and smote them, and discomfited them, even unto Hormah.
Numbers 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
Joshua 14:10 And now, behold, the Lord hath kept me alive, as he said, these forty and five years, even since the Lord spake this word unto Moses, while the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness: and now, lo, I am this day fourscore and five years old.
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