Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus (film)
- Thread starter beameup
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Elia
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Bs"d
The non-religious Velikovsky looked at the time line, and like beameup says: "There is a period between the Middle Kingdom and the New Kingdom, where Egypt seems to simply disappear for several hundred years."
There are several of those periods, where Egypt simply seems to disappear, and they ascribe that to war, famine, pestilence, or whatever. Of these periods there is absolutely nothing to be found. They call them "ghost-centuries". In total there are six of those ghost-centuries. What Velikovsky did, was cutting these ghost-centuries out of the Egyptian timeline, and shortening that time-line with 600 years.
And then the miracle happened: From the article: Worlds in collision by Chaim Eliav, published in Mishpacha of April 20 / 2005, here to be found: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/exodus
"Velikovsky solved the chronological problem with a simple and swift procedure. After examining the topic from every angle, he reached the conclusion that the existing Egyptian chronology had been overestimated, and that it was actually shorter than the historians had surmised.
Even the Egyptologists acknowledge that the chronology is not completely reliable. In contrast, the chronology of the Tanach (Old Testament) is amazingly precise. According to the Tanach, we can determine the exact date of the exodus from Egypt. What did Velikovsky do? In experimental fashion, he erased 600 years from Egyptian history. and aligned the papyrus with the period of the exodus. And that is where the really amazing thing happened. The moment that he recalculated Egyptian history without the 600 years, Velikovsky noted a fascinating corroboration of events between the Tanach and ancient Egyptian writings. It was a corroboration that continued for the next 1000 years until the destruction of the first Temple. The Egyptian writings mentioned many events that happened in Israel during the reign of the Kings and Prophets. Suddenly it grew clear who the Amelikites were. The historical records mentioned the Queen of Sheba, described the majesty of king Solomon, and noted the great woman who lived in Shunam who lived during the time of Ahab. The Egyptians even wrote what the indians in America said when the sun failed to rise after it was stopped by by Yehoshua in Givon. There were many other such enlightening finds.
Velikovsky's comprehensive effort to reconstruct the history of the ancient nations through this 600 year adjustment was the inspiration for his series "Ages in Chaos". Most important of all, it grew clear that the Jewish nation and its history held considerable weight and import at the time, in complete distinction to that implied by most accepted textbooks."
I read "Ages in Chaos", in which he gives the proof for the shortening of the time-line with 600 years, and it is so incredibly obvious that he is right, it is as simple as 1 + 1 = 2.
But then, that is something with which most Christians have a lot of difficulty to grasp that concept of 1 + 1 = 2, when it comes to their religion.
Even so the archaeologists cannot see the obvious because of their brainwashing, because of many text books that'll need to be rewritten, and because of many reputations that will go down the drain when some serious revisions are implemented.
But I advise everybody to read "Ages in Chaos" of Velikovsky, your eyes will be opened.
Many modern archaeologists are fighting the old Egyptian time line, but changes are always slow in coming.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
If he would not come back into the fold, he would lose his job, he reputation would be smeared, his career broken, and his life ruined.
Several books have been written with as only subject the treatment Velikovsky got from the "science" establishment. Here is something about that from this article: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/exodus
In 1950 most historians and astronomers saw Velikovsky's predictions and conclusions as nonsense. But while most aspiring scientists are accorded the right to propose theories even when the scientific community is not convinced of their veracity, this is not what happened to Velikovsky. His book; "Worlds in Collision", became the target of a fierce attack, even before it rolled of the printing presses. The attack was led by Dr. Harlow Shapley, a famous astronomer who then served as director of the Harvard University Observatory. Velikovsky met with Shapley in the spring of 1946 and described the ramifications of his extended, exhaustive study of the ancient writings. He asked whether Shapley would agree to read his manuscript, which had been in the preparatory stages for six years, and carry out certain experiments to verify the theory. Shapley, who was highly pressured at the time, turned down Velikovsky. However, he stipulated that if the manuscript would be read and approved by a well known scholar he knew, then he would find the time to read it, and he or a colleague would carry out the experiments in question.
Dr. Horace Kallen, a well-known scholar and co-founder of the New School for Social Research in New York, read Velikovsky's work. Deeply impressed, he wrote to Shapley and urged him to carry out the experiments, saying that if the theory should prove valid, "not only astronomy but history and a good many of the anthropological and social sciences would need to be reconsidered both for their content and explanation."
Shapley, when he heard that the work cast doubt on the stability of the solar system, sufficed with the following reply: "If Velikovsky is right, the rest of us are crazy."
Not only that, a short time after the book appeared in print, a university student asked Shapley whether she could base her research paper on the book. He answered her in the negative, saying Velikovsky was a liar and a forger. As for her question whether he read the book, Shapley provided the following scientific answer: "I didn't read it and I don't plan on reading it, because he is a liar and a forger." It was as simple as that. When it came to Velikovsky, the famous American "benefit of the doubt" had for some reason disappeared. At the onset of 1950, when the Macmillan publication company announced its intentions to publish Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision", Shapley tried to prevent the book from going to press. He threatened to "sever his ties" with the company, which relied on textbook sales for a substantial part of its profits. In what seemed to be an organized boycott, a long line of letters arrive in the Macmillan offices, all written by scientists, authors, and professors who used Macmillan textbooks for their courses. The letters warned the company to abandon its plan of publishing Velikovsky's books. At that point Macmillan had already begun the printing process. Faced with a though dilemma, the company announced that it would agree to a last minute critique of the book by three well known scientists. When two out of the three approved publication, Macmillan went ahead with the printing and the book appeared on the shelves in April of that year.
Thats when the storm broke.
Many saw the logic in Velikovsky's ideas and supported his right to express them. Gordon A. Atwater, curator or the Hayden Planetarium in New York's Museum of Natural History, is quoted at the beginning of Hulton Urstler's column in Readers Digest as saying that "the theories presented by Dr. Velikovsky are unique and should be presented to the world of science in order that the underpinnings of modern science be re-examined."
Atwater was so taken by Velikovsky's ideas that he planned an exhibit in the planetarium depicting the theory of Worlds in Collision. In addition, he prepared a cover article for the weekly "This Week", enjoining readers to approach the book without prior suspicions or preconceptions.
The night before the weekly went to print, Atwater was asked to resign from his position at the museum.
A short time later, Macmillan fired James Putnam, the editor who had arranged the book contract. Pressure mounted on Macmillan to stop marketing "Worlds in Collision". Eight weeks after the book first appeared, Macmillan transferred rights to Doubleday, a company that specialized in non-academic publications. That was an unprecedented step in the history of book publishing, especially considering that at the time, "Worlds in Collision" was at the top of the New York Times bestseller list for works of non-fiction.
The initial opposition to Velikovsky's ideas was so violent that several commentators were reminded of Galileo's condemnation by the Inquisition. Apparently, the scientific community could not deal with the possibility that the Bible might be proven true. And so Velikovsky was ostracized for many years, even though his books were bestsellers. The scientific community mocked and degraded him, and he was isolated and ignored. All his requests to scientifically test the data he presented were rejected or ignored outright. In hindsight, it is clear that he was persecuted because he forced the scientific world to consider the authenticity of the Torah. That is what a scientist declared many years after the book were published: That he would never forgive Velikovsky for causing so many Jews and Christians to once again believe in the Bible. An Australian, non-Jewish scientist, a proponent of th theory that the heavenly bodies suffered disturbances during fairly recent historical periods, recounted that whenever he lectures about Velikovsky's theories, the audience always applauds enthusiastically. However, the moment they realize that those theories validate the Torah's version of the exodus of Egypt, he is always met with fierce antagonism and opposition.
See the movie: "Expelled; No Intelligence Allowed" which deals with the same subject of dissenting scientist being ostracised.
The truth is being violently oppressed.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Yes, it is evidence of the Egyptian time-line being wrong.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Not "many". Maybe a handful. Can you name any?
And guess what? Sometimes the consensus in a field is actually correct!
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Yes, it makes the Egyptian time-line, and the time-line of the countries around Egypt, all based upon the Egyptian time-line, line up perfectly with the Bible, of which we know that it is extremely accurate when it comes to history.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
I recently read about a new one, but I don't feel like googeling right now. Ask google, he'll tell you.
And guess what? Sometimes it is HORRIBLY WRONG. And that is the case here.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Many have set out to prove the Bible wrong with no success. God's Word has never been proven wrong.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
What has been proven wrong however, is the Egpypt time-line of the old fashioned archaeologists.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Independent of any time-line, we have the Ipuwer papyrus written by an Egyptian priest, which describes the 10 plagues of Egypt, with a baffling similarity to the Biblical account.
And there is the Al Arish stele:
At last the Israelites could leave Egypt, but they were right away chased by the Egyptian army:
"Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, that they turn and camp before Pi Hakhiroth, between Migdol and the sea, opposite Baal Zephon; you shall camp before it by the sea. 3 For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, ‘They are bewildered by the land; the wilderness has closed them in.’ 4 Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.
5 Now it was told the king of Egypt that the people had fled, and the heart of Pharaoh and his servants was turned against the people; and they said, “Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?” 6 So he made ready his chariot and took his people with him. 7 Also, he took six hundred choice chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt with captains over every one of them. 8 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness. 9 So the Egyptians pursued them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, his horsemen and his army, and overtook them camping by the sea beside Pi Hakhiroth, before Baal Zephon."
Ex 14
And there you are, at Pi Hakhirot, right at the sea, and then the whole Egyptian army comes barging in. Luckily, a miracle happened:
"Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. 23 And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24 Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians. 25 And He took off[a] their chariot wheels, so that they drove them with difficulty; and the Egyptians said, “Let us flee from the face of Israel, for the Lord fights for them against the Egyptians.” 26 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea, that the waters may come back upon the Egyptians, on their chariots, and on their horsemen.” 27 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and when the morning appeared, the sea returned to its full depth, while the Egyptians were fleeing into it. So the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 28 Then the waters returned and covered the chariots, the horsemen, and all the army of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them. Not so much as one of them remained. 29 But the children of Israel had walked on dry land in the midst of the sea, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. 30 So the Lord saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. 31 Thus Israel saw the great work which the Lord had done in Egypt; so the people feared the Lord, and believed the Lord and His servant Moses.”
And GONE was the Egyptian army.
Isn't that miraculous?
But of course, there are unbelievers who'll say that these are all fairy tales, and nothing like this ever happened.
But for that eventuality we have the Al Arish stele. (stele: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele ) That is a black stone found in Al Arish, on the border of Israel and Egypt. And on that it is written: “The land was in great trouble. Disaster fell on this earth …. The capital was in great disarray ….. during nine days nobody could leave the palace (there was no way out of the palace) and during these nine days of upheaval is was storming so much that nor humans nor gods (the royal family) could see the faces of those next to them.”
This was one of the plagues, again written in the Torah, which God brought over the Egyptians when they didn't want to let the Israelites go:
“And the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, darkness which may even be felt.” 22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days. 23 They did not see one another; nor did anyone rise from his place for three days. But all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.”
And the hieroglyph text mentions also that pharaoh followed the “evil ones” to the place called “Pi Khiroti”.
And doesn't “Pi Khiroti” look an awful lot like “Pi Hakhirot” where according to the Torah the pharaoh caught up with the Israelites?
Please keep in mind that “Ha” is the Hebrew definite article which is written as a prefix to the word it defines, so “Pi Hakhirot” = “Pi Khirot”.
The stele speaks about “Pi-Khiroti”.
And the stele continues and tells us about the death of the pharaoh: “When his majesty fought against the evil ones in this whirlpool, the evil ones were not victorious over his majesty. His majesty jumped into the place of the whirlpool.
This looks an awful lot like: “For the horses of Pharaoh went with his chariots and his horsemen into the sea, and the Lord brought back the waters of the sea upon them. But the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea."
Doesn't it?
A person might wonder: “How is this possible, if it never happened?”
So we have the Al Arish stele, we have the Ipuwer papyrus with the plagues on it, how can anybody in his right mind deny it happened?
For more archeological evidence, see “The Exodus Decoded” and "Patterns of Evidence".
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
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sigh. There is little point in arguing with fundamentalists, whether Christian or Jewish.
If you accept the Bible as being 100% totally accurate, not to mention dictated by God Himself, then everything else has to be made to fit it. No matter what.
Archaeologists use the accepted chronology because it makes sense, matches the fact, and works. Serious archaeologists, including devout Christians and Jews, understand that the Bible is a religious text- not a history.
If you accept the Bible as being 100% totally accurate, not to mention dictated by God Himself, then everything else has to be made to fit it. No matter what.
Archaeologists use the accepted chronology because it makes sense, matches the fact, and works. Serious archaeologists, including devout Christians and Jews, understand that the Bible is a religious text- not a history.
beameup
New member
I saw the (fundamentalist) Christian "Patterns of Evidence" in a theater last year, which is why I posted this thread.
However, the greatest blunder in history has to be the so-called location of the Temple on Haram al Sharif.
Benjamin of Tudela, a Spanish Jew, in the 12th century, identified Haram al Sharif as the site of the Temple and it "stuck" ever since. Might just as well have been Constantine's mother Helena.
BTW, Velikovsky's theories figure very much into "end-times" events (ie: Day of the LORD).
What do you gain by these crackpot theories? There is no theological advantage that I can see.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
The same of course holds true for a convinced atheist.
It does not "work", because it is seriously out of sinc with the Bible, which is established as an enormously accurate source for history. It also doesn't work because it causes six "ghost-centuries" of which nothing at all is to be found archaeologically. This of course doesn't make any sense.
So no, it does NOT work.
Serious archaeologists, even atheist, have to admit that through the ages the Bible has been proven to be historically extremely reliable. All the Bible-critics that attacked the Bible based on archaeology were forced to eat their words, because of new archaeological finds.
And Velikovsky with simple and very strong arguments, rips the whole present time-line apart. A blind man can see he is right.
And the Bible is right.
As usual.
"As for God, His way is perfect; the word of Y-H-W-H is proven;"
Psalm 18:30
You can repeat this kind of thing 1,000 times, but that won't make it true.
This is slander. He changed his mind when he learned the basic facts, in his first year as an archaeology student. Long before he started working.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Correct, it is the facts which make it true.
Why do you keep on denying the facts? What's in it for you?
Why do you defend six non-existing "ghost centuries"?
Do you want to defend your atheism?
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
So he got brainwashed with the wrong dates, and when you look at things through the wrong glasses, everything is distorted, and you're led astray.
But what I said about scientist being ostracised and worse for having different opinions is unfortunately an established fact.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
More slander. I am not an atheist.
You are wrong on the facts. Do you need a perfect authoritative system to make yourself feel comfortable? Anything that is not perfectly neat bothers you?
No. He just learned what reality is.