ECT Paradigm Shift

[iamaberean]

A radical change in underlying beliefs or theory.

A very high percentage of people believe prophecy according to references in a Scofield Bible or books that have been written but primarily by our church teachers.

To have a paradigm shift, one must look at it from a different angle. How do you see my avatar, do you see a musician or a young lady. If I tell you I am a musician when everybody else says I am a women, then you will see a woman. Look at it and see if you can see both.

It is the same with prophecy, to know truth one must look at scripture from another angle and then see which one is true.

I will try to point out some examples as we go along.

 

[iamaberean]

As we know there are many church denominations primarily because good people of the past read the bible to mean something different that what they had been taught. Most denominations came out of the Catholic Church for the reason above.
Which one is right, or are any of them right? We should want to know and not just take the word of man, no matter how knowledgeable they were in the past or today. Why, because if men saw something new or different in the past they very well could have been wrong, else everyone would be of the same denomination and because we or not, then our own salvation could depend upon us being able to understand God's word. So let us look at the first set of scriptures.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Beware of false teachers. Out church could have the best people we know and still have false teachers because that haven't studied for themselves. If we don't understand God's word then we may be setting in a church that is teaching the false doctrine of wolves. Every denomination can't be right.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Even though these Christians have been obedient to the teachings of a true man of God, it was still up to each one to work out their own salvation.

1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
1Th 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
Again, Christians are responsible in study, in their own business and in their own life walk honestly.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Probably the most familiar scripture is this one. It points that we must study for our own knowledge because unless we do there is the possibility we sit under a false prophet.

This is scripture speaking as to the importance of our own understanding!

 

[iamaberean]

The bible is the Word of God, all of it, Old and New. Is it easy to understand? No, if it was there would only be one Church.

The problem was that the only copies of God’s word was very scarce and the fact was that most people couldn’t read anyway. So the Catholic Church, which was the most prominent church controled the Bible of which had been translated into Latin.

In the 14th century, John Wycliffe was the first to translate the bible into Engilsh. He was also one of the first to disagree with the Church of that day, the Roman Catholic Chruch.

The first bibles printed in volumn came with the printing press in the 15th century. For the first time people were able to afford their own bible and it is primarily the reason for the many different denominations we have today.

It is very easy to see now, why 600 years later there are so many denominations. Every one of them saw something so different from the others that they felt was important enough to start another denomination. The problem is that denominations set up their doctrines as if it was the final say so. It is not, we are still learning about God today and we must study for ourselves.

If we are going to understand the Bible, we must have some understanding of Hermeneutics. Hermeneutics is the science of Biblical interpretation. The purpose of Hermeneutics is to establish guidelines and rules for interpreting the Bible. Any written document is subject to misinterpretation, and thus the rules of Hermeneutics is set up to protect us.

The primary rules are:

1. Always confirm one scripture by finding another scripture that speaks of the same subject.

2. Understand that this book is about Him, it is His-story. The history of His covenant with Adam through Jesus.

3. Jesus was the first (Adam) and the last (Adam) and all of His-story is complete.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Jesus would finish his work of vengeance by returning in the judgment that was written about in the old testament (Book of Daniel), which happened in their generation. (All things which were written were things in the Old Testament, More on this later).

 

[Danoh]

The bible is the Word of God, all of it, Old and New. Is it easy to understand? No, if it was there would only be one Church.

The problem was that the only copies of God’s word was very scarce and the fact was that most people couldn’t read anyway. So the Catholic Church, which was the most prominent church controled the Bible of which had been translated into Latin.

In the 14th century, John Wycliffe was the first to translate the bible into Engilsh. He was also one of the first to disagree with the Church of that day, the Roman Catholic Chruch.

The first bibles printed in volumn came with the printing press in the 15th century. For the first time people were able to afford their own bible and it is primarily the reason for the many different denominations we have today.

It is very easy to see now, why 600 years later there are so many denominations. Every one of them saw something so different from the others that they felt was important enough to start another denomination. The problem is that denominations set up their doctrines as if it was the final say so. It is not, we are still learning about God today and we must study for ourselves.

If we are going to understand the Bible, we must have some understanding of Hermeneutics. Hermeneutics is the science of Biblical interpretation. The purpose of Hermeneutics is to establish guidelines and rules for interpreting the Bible. Any written document is subject to misinterpretation, and thus the rules of Hermeneutics is set up to protect us.

The primary rules are:

1. Always confirm one scripture by finding another scripture that speaks of the same subject.

2. Understand that this book is about Him, it is His-story. The history of His covenant with Adam through Jesus.

3. Jesus was the first (Adam) and the last (Adam) and all of His-story is complete.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Jesus would finish his work of vengeance by returning in the judgment that was written about in the old testament (Book of Daniel), which happened in their generation. (All things which were written were things in the Old Testament, More on this later).

You were doing fine til your about half way through your post; where you then turned what you were doing fine with into a soapbox for YOUR bias.

You might seek to ask, towards answering, first 'what precedes one school of thought or another?'

There is only one answer and it is not any one theological system.

 

[Interplanner]

I am reminded of the stranded pilgrim boatload of people during some of Europe's religious wars, moving back and forth between Holland and England and not permitted to land because of theology systems that they believed. On the 3rd try, they said simply that they believed that 'Christ was their righteousness.' They were given permission to land very quickly.

Hopefully we can find a line like that even today that is unifying rather than dividing.

 

[Danoh]

I am reminded of the stranded pilgrim boatload of people during some of Europe's religious wars, moving back and forth between Holland and England and not permitted to land because of theology systems that they believed. On the 3rd try, they said simply that they believed that 'Christ was their righteousness.' They were given permission to land very quickly.

Hopefully we can find a line like that even today that is unifying rather than dividing.

Why do you think I every so often refer to you as "brother" if not out of the above, and despite our different understandings in other areas?

 

[Aletheiophile]

I think that it is actually quite simple to map the diversification of Christianity. Until the Western reformation, there was only East and West. That split was primarily over the two issues of the Papacy and the Filioque, which are quite important. Much of the difference can be attributed to the language of the West being Latin and that of the East being Greek. St. Basil did much work to reconcile the key differences in the 4th century, but eventually there was that split. Yet even after that split, there was not a great disparity between the two branches.

Luther's reformation was catalyzed by Erasmus' work in the Greek. Erasmus himself had a lot of criticism of the church according to his Greek studies, but he remained within the Catholic church. There were other scholars at the time that also voiced dissention after studying the Greek text. But from that time, there were but a few branches. Although they fought fiercely for their respective doctrines, compared to the plethora of doctrines today they were not so far apart.

The greatest diversity of the church has come in the past two centuries, due to many factors.

1. Scientific revolutions: Kepler, Darwin, Einstein, and others.
2. Philosophical revolutions: Descartes, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Neitzsche, and others.
3. Political/Social revolutions: French Revolution, Marxism, Socialism, and others.

The result of scientific revolutions were the desecration of God's created order, and the subversion of a Bible-guided view of the cosmos. God's wisdom was now inferior, and man's subjective senses-based knowledge was superior.

The result of the philosophical revolutions was an anthropocentric focus for all knowledge. "I think therefore I am." The enlightenment thinkers rooted knowledge in the mind of man, not in the Creator God.

The social/political revolutions fostered a system whereby man regulated himself, rather than submitting to superior order. Man set about to fix the world by his own reason, rather than the reason of God.

In summary, these revolutions put man at the center of the world, not God.

It is after the seeds of these things were planted and beginning to grow that diversity began to flourish. It is from the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th centuries that American Christianity began to splinter. Mormonism, Adventism, Dispensationalism, Reconstructionists, Wesleyanism, and more. The multiplicity of modern Christianity is dependant on anthropocentric autonomy - mancentric subjective economy.

The true paradigm shift is Christ and the Gospel of Christ. The perfection of the Gospel is conformity to the image of Christ. Christ is the pure image and representation of the Father. Christ came that all may know "The One True Father and Jesus Christ, whom He hath sent." John 17:3. When teaching and study is Theocentric and Christocentric, that is where the unity comes. He is the paradigm shift, taking you out of the world and your own righteousness, and translating you into His own person and righteousness. It cannot be obtained by selfish seeking, but by a selfless submission to Christ. When out of repentance you cry out for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, that is where the unity is found. Eph. 1:17.

 

[iamaberean]

A little bit on the history of the church.

For the first 200 years or so after the death of Jesus the Christians were persecuted by the Romans and others. This brought about the cult of the saints, other wise known as believing that those dead saints were to be revered and prayed to. There were also many pagan holidays into the church. Still today, we have churches that practice these things and it isn’t just one denomination.

These are the churches that most all of the others have come out of. This is why that after 2000 years we are still trying to find the truth that was first preached by the Apostles. Although much truth has been learned through the years, there are still errors being taught today. In the process of those that tried to find truth, other errors have been incorporated into our churches. I could point out some directly to you but as it is with most truth, one must see it for themselves.

This is why we should study the bible using Hermeneutics and by doing so one will look at the Word of God in a different way, than what we have been taught by all churches. This will be a paradigm shift for many. I will continue to try to point out the errors of others with scripture.

 

[Danoh]

I think that it is actually quite simple to map the diversification of Christianity. Until the Western reformation, there was only East and West. That split was primarily over the two issues of the Papacy and the Filioque, which are quite important. Much of the difference can be attributed to the language of the West being Latin and that of the East being Greek. St. Basil did much work to reconcile the key differences in the 4th century, but eventually there was that split. Yet even after that split, there was not a great disparity between the two branches.

Luther's reformation was catalyzed by Erasmus' work in the Greek. Erasmus himself had a lot of criticism of the church according to his Greek studies, but he remained within the Catholic church. There were other scholars at the time that also voiced dissention after studying the Greek text. But from that time, there were but a few branches. Although they fought fiercely for their respective doctrines, compared to the plethora of doctrines today they were not so far apart.

The greatest diversity of the church has come in the past two centuries, due to many factors.

1. Scientific revolutions: Kepler, Darwin, Einstein, and others.
2. Philosophical revolutions: Descartes, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Neitzsche, and others.
3. Political/Social revolutions: French Revolution, Marxism, Socialism, and others.

The result of scientific revolutions were the desecration of God's created order, and the subversion of a Bible-guided view of the cosmos. God's wisdom was now inferior, and man's subjective senses-based knowledge was superior.

The result of the philosophical revolutions was an anthropocentric focus for all knowledge. "I think therefore I am." The enlightenment thinkers rooted knowledge in the mind of man, not in the Creator God.

The social/political revolutions fostered a system whereby man regulated himself, rather than submitting to superior order. Man set about to fix the world by his own reason, rather than the reason of God.

In summary, these revolutions put man at the center of the world, not God.

It is after the seeds of these things were planted and beginning to grow that diversity began to flourish. It is from the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th centuries that American Christianity began to splinter. Mormonism, Adventism, Dispensationalism, Reconstructionists, Wesleyanism, and more. The multiplicity of modern Christianity is dependant on anthropocentric autonomy - mancentric subjective economy.

The true paradigm shift is Christ and the Gospel of Christ. The perfection of the Gospel is conformity to the image of Christ. Christ is the pure image and representation of the Father. Christ came that all may know "The One True Father and Jesus Christ, whom He hath sent." John 17:3. When teaching and study is Theocentric and Christocentric, that is where the unity comes. He is the paradigm shift, taking you out of the world and your own righteousness, and translating you into His own person and righteousness. It cannot be obtained by selfish seeking, but by a selfless submission to Christ. When out of repentance you cry out for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, that is where the unity is found. Eph. 1:17.

:rotfl:

I'm sure I am not even a speck of a glimpse far off in the horizon on a dark cloudy day as impressed with your above rant as I'm sure you were with yourself, while typing it.

Speaking of the "anarthrous" relating "not 'the', but... the quality, character, and activiy (functionality) of" a thing - of their being "no English equivalent, and" how that "the indefinite article...has replaced the anarthrous" you could have saved yourself a ton of both time and wads of money had you simply read Romans 1-3 one or two dozen times or so.

It nicely lays out the very "essence" of all this that you have so apparently wasted both your time and money on an endless OVER reliance on books "about."

It lays it out, indicts it beyond redemption, and then provides the only answer to said wisdom of men you are obviously so impressed with your being able parrot as if your own.

WRRROCK! Polly wants a book "about!" Polly wants a book "about!" WRRROCK!

 

[iamaberean]

How shall we take scripture and put God’s story togeather? We do it with word search, making sure that these scriptures speak of the same event(s).

Day of the LORD, Last Day and Day of Vengeance


Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Isa 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

The day of the transgression of desolation was the Day of vengeance, the day of redemption, and it comes with destruction.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Some of them that stood around Jesus would be alive when Jesus came in his kingdom and judged the quick and the dead.

The above gives us a good summary of who, what and where these scriptures are speaking of. By way of our history we know these things came upon Jews, Jerusalem and the Temple in the last days, from the days of Jesus on earth (aprox 3 AD) to the destruction of the temple, 70 AD.

 

[Aletheiophile]

:rotfl:

I'm sure I am not even a speck of a glimpse far off in the horizon on a dark cloudy day as impressed with your above rant as I'm sure you were with yourself, while typing it.

Speaking of the "anarthrous" relating "not 'the', but... the quality, character, and activiy (functionality) of" a thing - of their being "no English equivalent, and" how that "the indefinite article...has replaced the anarthrous" you could have saved yourself a ton of both time and wads of money had you simply read Romans 1-3 one or two dozen times or so.

It nicely lays out the very "essence" of all this that you have so apparently wasted both your time and money on an endless OVER reliance on books "about."

It lays it out, indicts it beyond redemption, and then provides the only answer to said wisdom of men you are obviously so impressed with your being able parrot as if your own.

WRRROCK! Polly wants a book "about!" Polly wants a book "about!" WRRROCK!

It is quite immature to open a discussion, simply to attack people when they respond with information and analysis.

Have you ever considered that my studies of history and language did not make sense until spiritual knowledge was applied to it? Why is book learning only ever relegated to natural knowledge. Cannot God use books?

So of course my narrative agrees with Romans 1-3. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[Clete]

A radical change in underlying beliefs or theory.

A very high percentage of people believe prophecy according to references in a Scofield Bible or books that have been written but primarily by our church teachers.

To have a paradigm shift, one must look at it from a different angle. How do you see my avatar, do you see a musician or a young lady. If I tell you I am a musician when everybody else says I am a women, then you will see a woman. Look at it and see if you can see both.

It is the same with prophecy, to know truth one must look at scripture from another angle and then see which one is true.

I will try to point out some examples as we go along.

I've talked about the problem of paradigms for years! I know from experience that it is all but impossible to alter someone's paradigm unless they are under twenty five or thirty years of age. After that, it's a rare person indeed who is willing and able to toss out a paradigm that they've spent their lives investing in. And its not just that they've spent their lives believing it that makes it so hard for them to reject one theological paradigm in favor of another. That's part of it but the real problem is more fundamental than that. The major problem is that everyone wants everyone else to accept their paradigm but almost no one spends any time attempting to establish why their paradigm is superior.

If one person wears red glasses and you wear blue ones, why would anyone accept that your blue glasses give a more accurate depiction of reality than they perceive through their red glasses? On what basis can one determine that one paradigm is superior to another?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[iamaberean]

When Jesus walked the earth he had a reason for the things he did and said:

1. He came as God and a man. In the Old Testament he was foretold to be the redeemer. That would be to give back to his covenant people, starting with Adam unto and including the generation he walked in, eternal life with him. He spoke in terms they would understand, because they had all the books of life in their possession. In order for us (Gentiles) to understand we must always look at the bible from their point of view.

2. Everything the Apostles did and taught was from the Old Testament and/or directly from Jesus who taught them as he walked, but also spent forty days after his resurrection explaining the word of God in detail. We were not a part of the process, we are the final product. We have what we have because of God and his messengers. There is nothing written that didn't end with the 'last day' spoken of by the Jewish prophets and the 'last day' is past. All prophecy has been fulfilled, just as Jesus said he would do.

3. The Catholic church has nothing to do with or is even mentioned in prophecy, there is no prophecy about or given to the churches or to the Gentiles. Even the man of perdition is only mentioned because, as with most of the Jew's adversaries, he would be known. We know, because of history, that the persecutor (King) that had rule over the Jews in the last days was Rome and the leader of Rome was 'Nero' (666).

4. Can you have a paradigm shift to what has just been written? If you can, I promise you that God will open your eyes to a whole new experience.

 

[Clete]

Can you have a paradigm shift to what has just been written? If you can, I promise you that God will open your eyes to a whole new experience.

On what basis can you determine that your paradigm is superior to another?

 

[iamaberean]

On what basis can you determine that your paradigm is superior to another?

I was saved in the latter part of 1985. It didn't take long to find out that prophecy teachers were all speaking about the coming of Jesus in 1988. That was based on the fact that the Jews had gone back to Israel in 1948 and the prophecy teachers all spoke the coming of Jesus in this generation. 1948 + 40 = 1988. It seemed to make sense. 1988 came and went, but my hunger to understand prophecy was still there. I read up on prophecy, watched video's and all in all I couldn't put it together.

One day in 90's my son returned from a Christian conference on "shame". At that conference, which lasted a week, every one met for all day prayer and testifying. It was at that conference preterism came up, my son accepted it immediately as being true.

Instead of giving me a bible study on preterism, he just asked me to research it for myself and tell him how I felt about it. I ignored it for a few months, but he asked me again for my opinion. I decided to research in depth so that I could explain it to him. So I asked God to give me understanding of prophecy and that I would accept which ever version he gave as my own. After a few months I had enough knowledge to tell my son that there wasn't any scripture to disprove preterism but I needed more time.

A few months later God was showing me more and more of his truth and amazingly it all made sense, something that dispensation technology never did. If God could open up his word like this to me, then I am assured he will do it for others. Thus I stand of my statement:
"I promise you that God will open your eyes to a whole new experience".

 

[Clete]

I was saved in the latter part of 1985. It didn't take long to find out that prophecy teachers were all speaking about the coming of Jesus in 1988. That was based on the fact that the Jews had gone back to Israel in 1948 and the prophecy teachers all spoke the coming of Jesus in this generation. 1948 + 40 = 1988. It seemed to make sense. 1988 came and went, but my hunger to understand prophecy was still there. I read up on prophecy, watched video's and all in all I couldn't put it together.

One day in 90's my son returned from a Christian conference on "shame". At that conference, which lasted a week, every one met for all day prayer and testifying. It was at that conference preterism came up, my son accepted it immediately as being true.

Instead of giving me a bible study on preterism, he just asked me to research it for myself and tell him how I felt about it. I ignored it for a few months, but he asked me again for my opinion. I decided to research in depth so that I could explain it to him. So I asked God to give me understanding of prophecy and that I would accept which ever version he gave as my own. After a few months I had enough knowledge to tell my son that there wasn't any scripture to disprove preterism but I needed more time.

A few months later God was showing me more and more of his truth and amazingly it all made sense, something that dispensation technology never did. If God could open up his word like this to me, then I am assured he will do it for others. Thus I stand of my statement:
"I promise you that God will open your eyes to a whole new experience".

Blah blah blah God told me blah blah blah.


How are you any different than Jim Jones or David Koresh? Their major argument was based on personal experience as well and they could both quote scripture to you till the whole room turned blue in the face!

Read my question more carefully...

On what basis can you (or anyone) determine that one paradigm is superior to another?

 

[iamaberean]

The last shall be first and first shall be last. Have you ever wondered about that scripture?

Mat 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

The householder hired labouers at he first hour, a few more in the third hour. Again he went out at he sixth hour and the ninth hours and hired more labouers.

Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
Mat 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

At the end of the day every labourer was paid the same wage, that is strange enough, but then Jesus said the last shall be first and the first last. I passed by this many times but then it begin to make sense.

The kingdom of heaven offers wages for work (under law they were judged by works), so we first see this is about the faithful Jews going to heaven. Knowing that I had to tackle the part about the last would be first, then it dawned on me.

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Martha told Jesus that she knew her brother would rise again in the resurrection at the last day. But Jesus told her “whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.” That tells me that when a believer dies a natural death, his soul goes right on to heaven, the kingdom of God.

But we know there had not been a resurrection at that time, until:

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief on the cross that asked Jesus to remember him when he comest into his kingdom believed Jesus was the Messiah or he would not have requested Jesus to remember his after death. Then Jesus said: “To day shall thou be with me in paradise”
The first resurrections happened that day, Jesus and then the thief on the cross with him, these were the first to be resurrected but last as far as all the faithful Jews of the past.

This brought understanding ” the last shall be first” So we can say that the first resurrection was Jesus and all believers of Jesus during the last days.

The resurrection of the dead would happen in 70 AD when the very last day of Daniel’s prophecy came about, the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

There is no resurrection of the dead anymore, believers, who will never die, go on to be with the Lord. The non-believers are buried.

 

[Cross Reference]

The bible is the Word of God, all of it, Old and New. Is it easy to understand? No, if it was there would only be one Church.

Not true. The Bible is the composite of scriptures the teach us ABOUT God, i.e., Who He is and what were/are His intentions set in Himself for having created man to be a part of it all. The "Word of God" is a living expression made manifest in the one who understands the above and enters into the process of "learning" Him for the purpose of abandonment to His Life. Even Jesus followed that understanding.

 

[Interplanner]

Blah blah blah God told me blah blah blah.


How are you any different than Jim Jones or David Koresh? Their major argument was based on personal experience as well and they could both quote scripture to you till the whole room turned blue in the face!

Read my question more carefully...

On what basis can you (or anyone) determine that one paradigm is superior to another?

Clete,
I think the answer is in your footer banner: "I am not MAD..." --Paul

 

[Interplanner]

Not true. The Bible is the composite of scriptures the teach us ABOUT God, i.e., Who He is and what were/are His intentions set in Himself for having created man to be a part of it all. The "Word of God" is a living expression made manifest in the one who understands the above and enters into the process of "learning" Him for the purpose of abandonment to His Life.

But it is easy to understand the self-organizing passages of the NT once we know them. D'ism says the Bible is organized by the following three sound bytes: Gen's 12's promise of blessing those who bless (modern) Israel (They actually read it as though it was originally written about the 20th century)
2, Mt 23's 'you will not see me again until you say 'blessed is he...'
3, Rom 11's 'all Israel will be saved.'

All three are utterly wobbly compared to the following list of passages of solid doctrine about what is really going on between OT and NT:
Rom 3, 4, 9, 10, 15
Gal 3, 4
2 Cor 3-5
Acts 13's sermon and 26's speech
Heb 8-10