Do you know that Jesus says "My Father is greater than I".
Why do you disregard what Jesus said?
Palestine? Palestinians? A 20th Century Creation
- Thread starter beameup
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Do you know that Jesus says "My Father is greater than I".
Why do you disregard what Jesus said?
I thought you were against the idea of a Trinity?
Only the elect will remain in Israel after Christ's return, with all unbelievers having gone over to the worship of the beast and are soon destroyed Rev.ch 11.
I have some knowledge of both groups, but only the elect have obeyed God who will be gathered by Christ at His coming--
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
It does not seem to be much of a crime by the nations when we consider that it was the hand of God which did it in the way you are thinking of.
LA
insightful, brother.
I sincerely believe NOBODY should be listening to you preach. You are totally ignorant when it comes to true Doctrine.
why do you think I put those hateful ones on ignore?
As soon as I real ease them from ignore I get sucked in.
Dispensationalism simply plays on prejudice and biases- defend the Jews and hate communism, defend the Jews and hate ISIS. It also teaches abysmal 'easy believism' and being beamed up into the sky as soon as things get tough.
These are the reasons why what was virtually a cultist ideology came to be 70 million strong. These people have embarrassed their selves more than once, let them just keep on doing it- they put on quite a show for the other 2 billion Christians on Earth
And, of course, you don't KNOW what you're talking about. It really doesn't matter to you, though, does it.
Who said that? I haven't seen anyone saying that. You guys are misrepresenting your enemy.
I have expounded on Romans 11, per your attemptt to debunk its reference to the "enemy of the gospel" Jews.
Your current use of Romans 11 is lacking a response to my specifying that Paul had been blinded. On that note...
If you're down playing Joel 3:2 by saying that God put it in their hearts to divide the land, then I in suit can up play it back by pointing out that God "gave them eyes that they couldn't see" (in reference to the Jews).
I'm not really sure why you quoted Deuteronomy. Perhaps to point out that no one can keep the covenant of God but Christ?
Yeah, you don't want to get "sucked into the truth, do ya."
At least [MENTION=17677]Crucible[/MENTION] comes with some sophist rhetoric and at least [MENTION=10015]Lazy afternoon[/MENTION] has come with cited scripture.
#Hint...
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Israel of God
Israel of God
The chief purpose of God in history is to glorify Himself through the redemption of a people in all times, places and out of all races, which by His grace He has variously administered since the fall, in history in a visible, institutional church, under Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and now Our Lord Jesus Christ. The premise of the Zionist that God’s intent has been to establish a permanent or millennial, national, Jewish people has it exactly backward, for they confuse what is temporary with what is permanent, and what is permanent with what is temporary.
Scripture teaches us that Jesus is the true Israel of God, that Our Lord's incarnation, obedience, death and resurrection was not some by-product of Israel’s rejection of the offer of an earthly kingdom, but the fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan from all eternity. Is this not Jesus told the disciples on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-27? Did not Paul summarize this same teaching when he told the Corinthians that "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)?
Unfortunately, not a few believers assume that every event which occurred in the history of redemption before the incarnation and death of Jesus Christ belongs to the Old Testament. Moreover, these same assume that since the incarnation, the Old Covenant Scriptures do not speak to or apply to Christians. Sadly, we can easily read in these forums the words of dispensationalists who consider that some books in the New Testament do not apply to Christians today, because these books were intended for those who are ethnically Jewish.
Yet, the same Scripture these folks look to refutes their claims. The Apostle Paul in 2 Cor 3.12-18 defines the “Old Covenant” as Moses, that is, broadly the books of Moses and most particularly the Mosaic laws (2 Cor. 3:14-15). In Hebrews 7:22, Our Lord is the guarantee of a better covenant than that which was given to the Israelites. In Hebrews 8:6-13, contrasting the New Covenant with the Old, we see the restriction of the Old Covenant to the Mosaic epoch of redemptive history. The author of Hebrews makes the same distinction in Hebrews 9:15-20, too.
Accordingly, strictly speaking, the Old Covenant describes the covenant which God made with Israel at Sinai. Therefore, not everything which occurred in the history of salvation before the incarnation, belongs to the Old Covenant. This is important, because the Old Covenant is described in the New Testament as “inferior” (Hebrews 8:7), “obsolete,” “aging” (Hebrews 8:13) and its glory “fading.”
Along these same lines, another important fact to note about the Old Covenant is that it was intentionally temporary and typical (types and shadows). Colossians 2:17 describes the Mosaic (Old Covenant) ceremonial laws as a “shadow” of things to come. Hebrews 8:5 describes the earthly Temple as a “type and shadow” of the heavenly temple. The Mosaic Law itself, was only a “shadow” of the fulfillment which came with Jesus Christ.
With the death, resurrection, and ascension of Our Lord, the promise God made to Adam and repeated to Abraham remains, but the circumstances have changed. On this side of the cross we view things differently because we live in the days of fulfillment. In Scriptural terms, we live in the “last days” (2 Pet 3:3; James 5:3; Hebrews 1:2; Acts 2:17).
The Old Covenant's function was to direct attention upward to heavenly realities (Ex 25:9; Acts 7:44; Heb 8:5) and forward in history to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The old signs, Passover, circumcision, as well as the other bloody sacrifices and ceremonies have been replaced. Nevertheless we still live in covenantal arrangement with God, and the bloody pictures of Or Lord have been replaced with un-bloody signs (reminders) and seals.
Just as God made a covenant with Abraham, He promised a New Covenant to come later (Jer. 31:31). God made this New Covenant in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 22:20). Our Lord consciously and specifically established “the New covenant.” Paul said he was “a servant of the New covenant” (2 Cor. 3.6).
Now some who deny there are but two covenants, Works and Grace, will ask, How can this be if there is but one Covenant of Grace? We covenantalists answer, that the New Covenant is new as contrasted with Moses, but not new as contrasted with Abraham. The Covenant of Grace remains, but the administration of the CoG has changed.
As to your question above, I answer...
Here then comes your answer directly:
We may ask, Has God rejected His people? No, the elect are His people and all the elect will be saved. Yes, there are believing Jews. In fact, Paul uses himself as an example (Romans 11:1). Paul is a part of the elect remnant who have not bowed the knee to Baal (Romans 11:5). What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened.
There is no doubt that God is not finished saving Jews. That does not mean He is going to save all the Jews and establish a nation of elect Jews in the Middle East. Rather, salvation has come to the Gentiles “to make Israel envious” (Romans 11:11). Gentiles, by God’s undeserved favor, have been grafted on to the Israel of God. “Israel has experienced a hardening until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved” (11:25-6). All Israel, that is Christians (Gal. 6:16; 1 Peter 2:9-10; Hebrews 8:8-10). God has a plan for Jews, it is the same plan He promised to Adam and to Abraham. That seed is the one Jesus Christ. He is the Holy One of Israel, He is the Israel of God. He did what Adam would not do. He did what stiff-necked Israel would and could not do.
AMR
Israel of God
No. Election unto salvation as relates to soteriology is not a national undertaking, but an individual one. To say the nation of Israel was once elect in the soteriological sense, would mean each and every person therein was saved, yet somehow, those saved by God, then lost that which God clearly teaches cannot be lost. This is contrary to any sense of the Reformed's perseverance of the saints, or even the non-Reformed's once saved, always saved.
The chief purpose of God in history is to glorify Himself through the redemption of a people in all times, places and out of all races, which by His grace He has variously administered since the fall, in history in a visible, institutional church, under Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and now Our Lord Jesus Christ. The premise of the Zionist that God’s intent has been to establish a permanent or millennial, national, Jewish people has it exactly backward, for they confuse what is temporary with what is permanent, and what is permanent with what is temporary.
Scripture teaches us that Jesus is the true Israel of God, that Our Lord's incarnation, obedience, death and resurrection was not some by-product of Israel’s rejection of the offer of an earthly kingdom, but the fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan from all eternity. Is this not Jesus told the disciples on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-27? Did not Paul summarize this same teaching when he told the Corinthians that "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)?
Unfortunately, not a few believers assume that every event which occurred in the history of redemption before the incarnation and death of Jesus Christ belongs to the Old Testament. Moreover, these same assume that since the incarnation, the Old Covenant Scriptures do not speak to or apply to Christians. Sadly, we can easily read in these forums the words of dispensationalists who consider that some books in the New Testament do not apply to Christians today, because these books were intended for those who are ethnically Jewish.
Yet, the same Scripture these folks look to refutes their claims. The Apostle Paul in 2 Cor 3.12-18 defines the “Old Covenant” as Moses, that is, broadly the books of Moses and most particularly the Mosaic laws (2 Cor. 3:14-15). In Hebrews 7:22, Our Lord is the guarantee of a better covenant than that which was given to the Israelites. In Hebrews 8:6-13, contrasting the New Covenant with the Old, we see the restriction of the Old Covenant to the Mosaic epoch of redemptive history. The author of Hebrews makes the same distinction in Hebrews 9:15-20, too.
Accordingly, strictly speaking, the Old Covenant describes the covenant which God made with Israel at Sinai. Therefore, not everything which occurred in the history of salvation before the incarnation, belongs to the Old Covenant. This is important, because the Old Covenant is described in the New Testament as “inferior” (Hebrews 8:7), “obsolete,” “aging” (Hebrews 8:13) and its glory “fading.”
Along these same lines, another important fact to note about the Old Covenant is that it was intentionally temporary and typical (types and shadows). Colossians 2:17 describes the Mosaic (Old Covenant) ceremonial laws as a “shadow” of things to come. Hebrews 8:5 describes the earthly Temple as a “type and shadow” of the heavenly temple. The Mosaic Law itself, was only a “shadow” of the fulfillment which came with Jesus Christ.
With the death, resurrection, and ascension of Our Lord, the promise God made to Adam and repeated to Abraham remains, but the circumstances have changed. On this side of the cross we view things differently because we live in the days of fulfillment. In Scriptural terms, we live in the “last days” (2 Pet 3:3; James 5:3; Hebrews 1:2; Acts 2:17).
The Old Covenant's function was to direct attention upward to heavenly realities (Ex 25:9; Acts 7:44; Heb 8:5) and forward in history to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The old signs, Passover, circumcision, as well as the other bloody sacrifices and ceremonies have been replaced. Nevertheless we still live in covenantal arrangement with God, and the bloody pictures of Or Lord have been replaced with un-bloody signs (reminders) and seals.
Just as God made a covenant with Abraham, He promised a New Covenant to come later (Jer. 31:31). God made this New Covenant in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 22:20). Our Lord consciously and specifically established “the New covenant.” Paul said he was “a servant of the New covenant” (2 Cor. 3.6).
Now some who deny there are but two covenants, Works and Grace, will ask, How can this be if there is but one Covenant of Grace? We covenantalists answer, that the New Covenant is new as contrasted with Moses, but not new as contrasted with Abraham. The Covenant of Grace remains, but the administration of the CoG has changed.
As to your question above, I answer...
Spoiler
Here then comes your answer directly:
We may ask, Has God rejected His people? No, the elect are His people and all the elect will be saved. Yes, there are believing Jews. In fact, Paul uses himself as an example (Romans 11:1). Paul is a part of the elect remnant who have not bowed the knee to Baal (Romans 11:5). What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened.
There is no doubt that God is not finished saving Jews. That does not mean He is going to save all the Jews and establish a nation of elect Jews in the Middle East. Rather, salvation has come to the Gentiles “to make Israel envious” (Romans 11:11). Gentiles, by God’s undeserved favor, have been grafted on to the Israel of God. “Israel has experienced a hardening until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved” (11:25-6). All Israel, that is Christians (Gal. 6:16; 1 Peter 2:9-10; Hebrews 8:8-10). God has a plan for Jews, it is the same plan He promised to Adam and to Abraham. That seed is the one Jesus Christ. He is the Holy One of Israel, He is the Israel of God. He did what Adam would not do. He did what stiff-necked Israel would and could not do.
AMR
Fairness has nothing to do with this site. They claim they are biased.
Besides, you don't seem to know what Jesus teaches. Have your read NT yet?
Spiritual Zion / Spiritual Jerusalem is a truth, but Spiritual Israel is a tool to remove the covenants of God to Literal Israel.
You yourself noted that Joel 3:2 has some teeth. You simply downplayed it by citing other OT scripture in your verbiage.
You have still failed to remove the specific meaning of "enemies of the gospel" beloved for their ancestors from Romans 11. It still stands strong as uncontested without scriptural slight of hand.
Go away. That should be your thing.
You have insinuated that I haven't read the NT. And... this follows your mantra of being Loving how? I'm here to talk about Israel and stay on OP topic.
#And you respond.... how?
I don't question them. I don't fight with them. And LA is one of my best friends here.
I am here to encourage like minded Christians who are interested in actually try to follow Jesus.
do you get it?
You also deny MOST of the Bible, except for "Matthew through John." You also said: "Paul is an anti-Christ."
So now the myth responds to me. I happen to know that you are a fantastic and respectful person to debate with. I won't ignore your effort in taking the time to respond with well prepared scriptures and responses.
I will respond by tomorrow.