musterion
Well-known member
Why does God damn all who refuse to breathe when He never gave them lungs to breathe with?
Theology Club: Other than glorification, what is the need for the Holy Spirit in the open view?
- Thread starter BrianJOrr
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Why does God damn all who refuse to breathe when He never gave them lungs to breathe with?
BrianJOrr
New member
I think these comments from John Piper from a book review are quite fitting for this:
"But if God can convict the heart of man, that is, if he can turn a man's will (his inclination or preference) away from sin even though the man has no say in it, then have we not admitted in principle that the activity of a man's will and emotions are no less human for having been caused by God apart from the man's prior, free decision? If this is so, then the argument that man becomes mule-like when God irresistibly influences this will falls to the ground. If man becomes a dehumanized automaton when God irresistibly causes man's will to incline away from sin then God's convicting man of sin is a dehumanizing act and faith which may result from this conviction is not genuine because man had to be turned into an automaton (in the experience of conviction) in order to bring that faith about.
But there is a very good reason to affirm that God's "tinkering" with man's heart to convict him of sin and irresistibly draw him to repentance and faith is not a dehumanizing act. The reason is simply this: all men are already dehumanized mules enslaved to sin (Romans 6:16, 17), "held captive by Satan to do his will" (2 Timothy 2:26); they are "by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3); in short, they are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). F&M simply do not take seriously the corruption of the human heart and the power of Satan over those so corrupted (see their rejection of Augustine's view of original sin, 270-272). If they did they would not see man as a free being for whom God's irresistible grace is a threat to his humanity. Rather, they would see man's humanity distorted by bondage to sin and would view God's grace as liberation and humanization. It is not dehumanizing to make live men out of dead ones, even though dead men do not freely choose to be raised. Therefore, I reject the argument that in order to fulfill his purpose to save men and not mules God must not call men irresistibly to faith (35). On the contrary, if God aims to transform any of Satan's mule-herd back into men he must do so irresistibly, for mules by nature do not will to become men.
Related Note (from The Works of Jonathan Edwards, Edinburgh, 1974, vol. 2, p. 532):
Objectors may say, God cannot always prevent men's sins, unless he act contrary to the free nature of the subject or without destroying men's liberty. But will they deny that an omnipotent and infinitely wise God could not possibly invent, and set before men such strong motives to obedience, and have kept them before them in such a manner, as should have influenced all mankind to continue in their obedience as the elect angels have done without destroying their liberty? God will order it so that the saints and angels in heaven never will sin: and does it therefore follow that their liberty is destroyed and that they are not free, but forced in their actions? Does it follow that they are turned into blocks, as the Arminians say the Calvinist doctrines turn men?
"But if God can convict the heart of man, that is, if he can turn a man's will (his inclination or preference) away from sin even though the man has no say in it, then have we not admitted in principle that the activity of a man's will and emotions are no less human for having been caused by God apart from the man's prior, free decision? If this is so, then the argument that man becomes mule-like when God irresistibly influences this will falls to the ground. If man becomes a dehumanized automaton when God irresistibly causes man's will to incline away from sin then God's convicting man of sin is a dehumanizing act and faith which may result from this conviction is not genuine because man had to be turned into an automaton (in the experience of conviction) in order to bring that faith about.
But there is a very good reason to affirm that God's "tinkering" with man's heart to convict him of sin and irresistibly draw him to repentance and faith is not a dehumanizing act. The reason is simply this: all men are already dehumanized mules enslaved to sin (Romans 6:16, 17), "held captive by Satan to do his will" (2 Timothy 2:26); they are "by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3); in short, they are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). F&M simply do not take seriously the corruption of the human heart and the power of Satan over those so corrupted (see their rejection of Augustine's view of original sin, 270-272). If they did they would not see man as a free being for whom God's irresistible grace is a threat to his humanity. Rather, they would see man's humanity distorted by bondage to sin and would view God's grace as liberation and humanization. It is not dehumanizing to make live men out of dead ones, even though dead men do not freely choose to be raised. Therefore, I reject the argument that in order to fulfill his purpose to save men and not mules God must not call men irresistibly to faith (35). On the contrary, if God aims to transform any of Satan's mule-herd back into men he must do so irresistibly, for mules by nature do not will to become men.
Related Note (from The Works of Jonathan Edwards, Edinburgh, 1974, vol. 2, p. 532):
Objectors may say, God cannot always prevent men's sins, unless he act contrary to the free nature of the subject or without destroying men's liberty. But will they deny that an omnipotent and infinitely wise God could not possibly invent, and set before men such strong motives to obedience, and have kept them before them in such a manner, as should have influenced all mankind to continue in their obedience as the elect angels have done without destroying their liberty? God will order it so that the saints and angels in heaven never will sin: and does it therefore follow that their liberty is destroyed and that they are not free, but forced in their actions? Does it follow that they are turned into blocks, as the Arminians say the Calvinist doctrines turn men?
musterion
Well-known member
Take 2, extending the analogy a bit further.
Why does God damn all who refuse to breathe specifically for their refusal to breathe, when He never gave them lungs to breathe with because He secretly never intended them to breathe the only life-giving Air?
More to the point: Could He do so and remain a perfectly just and holy Judge who cannot lie?
Why does God damn all who refuse to breathe specifically for their refusal to breathe, when He never gave them lungs to breathe with because He secretly never intended them to breathe the only life-giving Air?
More to the point: Could He do so and remain a perfectly just and holy Judge who cannot lie?
Because God views sin this way. It must be punished.
Men are not damned because they sin but are part of a fallen and damned creation. The fact of God's electing to save some of that mass of the damned race is the outworking of the love of God and the grace of God. God chose to intervene in the world to save some. Some were passed by. If I see 10 homeless people and give $5 to 5 of them and nothing to the other 5 am I unjust? No. I did not have to give anything to any of them.
BrianJOrr
New member
Deuteronomy 29:2-4: Moses says to the Israelites before they enter the promised land, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes . . . those great signs and wonders. Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (cf. Romans 11:32; Deuteronomy 5:29).
Is there any injustice on God's part? Most certainly not! He is the Creator and we are the creatures (Paul and Job are answered this)
The Bible teaches both—man is responsible for his sin, and God is sovereign over everything.
This is where the sidewalk ends, and we have to be ok with it. God is good, and I rest that in that, knowing that everything he does and decrees to come to pass is perfect and good.
If the Scriptures never taught that God changes the hearts of man unto salvation, knowing what the Scriptures teach about man's heart and nature, being enslaved to sin, I would see that salvation is impossible and all efforts of preaching and saving souls would be in vain; however, because the Scriptures teach that God through his grace changes the hearts of some according to his own sovereign will, then there is hope, and I know that what I do to advance the Kingdom is not in vain. It is because God is sovereign that I knowthat many will be saved; if it be left up to man, then none would be saved.
musterion
Well-known member
You didn't answer the point of the question.
How can a just Judge hold people specifically responsible for disobeying the very thing He didn't enable them to obey?
This isn't a matter of mere disobedience: "I told you to do/not do ______ but you chose the opposite."
This is "You're guilty for doing _______" when "______" is precisely what He secretly intended them to do since before they were born. And when they do it, He damns them for it as if THEY chose to do it.
How does that not make Him a liar?
How can a just Judge hold people specifically responsible for disobeying the very thing He didn't enable them to obey?
This isn't a matter of mere disobedience: "I told you to do/not do ______ but you chose the opposite."
This is "You're guilty for doing _______" when "______" is precisely what He secretly intended them to do since before they were born. And when they do it, He damns them for it as if THEY chose to do it.
How does that not make Him a liar?
....scripture says God draws men to Christ...men must receive Christ and continue to abide in Him...men do not un choose God ...men are drawn away by their own lust and enticed.Once that happens you are no longer abiding in Christ....God has given us all things that pertains to life and godliness...what else does man need to remain in Christ...Christ is not a prison...we are kept in Christ by the power of God which is the HS he gave us...
Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
the prodigal son was free to go and free to return....
faith comes by hearing the word of God...man can choose to obey the faith or disobey the faith....God gives the gift of the HS which dwells in us when we obey the Faith....and that has nothing to do with impressing his will upon anyone...it says follow the Spirit.....you are implying God must force his Spirit upon man
assuming no one has ever heard the word...how is the heart regenerated??? faith comes by hearing the word....the word is alive and gives faith...you either obey the word of faith you got and receive the gift of the HS or disobey the word of faith and remain in darkness until the word of faith brings light again...the HS writes the laws of God on our hearts
You didn't answer the question either. Changing the analogy won't help you. If I make 10 people homeless then give $5 to one of them, am I unjust? The injustice is not in giving the $5 to one of them nor even in refusing to give the $5 to the other nine, but in making all of them homeless to begin with.
I've heard this compared to a father with 2 children at the dinner table.
The father says that they must eat their dinner or be punished.
The father gives a plate of food to child 1, but not child 2.
Child 2 gets the tar whooped out of him for not eating his dinner.
BrianJOrr
New member
I think here you are making a category mistake, looking at this situation as if you know the mind of God. You are thinking from a creature—creature presupposition. And I understand that. God is not like a man that he should lie.
God's ordaining the salvation of some and the damnation of others (which he passes over in election, not creating them for the purpose of eternal hellfire) is something that cannot be answered. And it doesn't make God a liar by any means. Paul asks the same question in Romans 11:7-11, then ends his answer in prostrate humility, "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has given a gift to him that might not be repaid?' For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen" (vv.33-36).
Can you understand fully and explain the orthodox doctrines of the Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ? The Scriptures clearly teach this, and so I hold to it, though I cannot fully understand it. Do you stumble on those? Do you find fault in God for not understanding those teachings? No, we find fault in ourselves because we lack the mental capacity to do so.
Even though there is more scriptural support for man's responsibility and culpability for sin and God's sovereignty over man's will than the two cardinal doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation, you stumble more and find issue more on this matter, assuming it's something wrong on God's end, if the case be true, and not your issue because of your finite, fallible nature? (And I place myself in the same category. I struggled through this myself for a while, but the more I read, the more I see the Scriptures scream the truth of these teachings.)
What ultimately tests the truthfulness of a doctrine, as with all other Christian teaching, is not whether it is plausible or attractive, but that we find it in Scripture.
BrianJOrr
New member
Those who obey have the heart and mind to obey, which is of the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:3, "Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
How can one do so? He must be born again. How is man born again?
John 3:5-8, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Salvation is the work of God alone. You must have the Spirit, and the Spirit goes to those as he chooses. No man says, "Spirit please come to me so that I can choose Christ." The man who proclaims Christ is because the Spirit came to him first, opening his heart and mind to believe.
God did not create or make man sinful.
musterion
Well-known member
No it isn't. You're just throwing big words up in the air trying to fog the issue.
Wrong. This is why it is not a category error: we DO have His mind on what He wants for those in sin: that none should perish but all come to a knowledge of the truth and be reconciled to Him. The problem is on your end because your gnostic soteriology makes that a lie, and God a liar.
It's that simple, which is why you can't answer simple questions. You don't dare.
AGAIN ALL OF HUMANITY WAS ALREADY CONDEMNED TO HELL
GOD DID NOT NEED TO SAVE ANY OF US TO BEGIN WITH
ALSO GOD DID NOT CREATE PEOPLE TO DAMN THEM. WHAT HAPPENED WAS ADAM WAS CREATED IN A STATE OF UNCONFIRMED CREATURELY HOLINESS WITH AN ABILITY TO CHOOSE CONTRARY TO HIS NATURE
GOD KNEW ADAM WOULD SIN BUT ALLOWED FOR THIS TO HAPPEN
ONCE IT DID EVERYONE BORN FROM ADAM WERE BORN DEAD TO GOD AND HEADED TO HELL
THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU SAY BECAUSE YOU CLAIM GOD CREATED THE DAMNED WITHOUT REMEDY BUT THE FACT IS THAT GOD NEVER CREATED ANYONE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DAMNING ANYONE.
Was your cap lock button on by mistake? Please remember that posting in all caps is internet speak for shouting and is a violation of TOL rules.
BrianJOrr
New member
Instead of making assertions, how about responding to the verses I have used to support my position in the various posts I have made. Show me biblically how your position is correct. Show me how my soteriology is Gnostic. I did answer the questions plainly; you just don't like my answers. You not liking them doesn't make them wrong. And which words are too big for you? I will water them down for you.