Theology Club: Other than glorification, what is the need for the Holy Spirit in the open view?

[Tambora]

Sect?
You mean like those that are Calvinists, but don't come to the same exact conclusions that other Calvinists come to?

Yes. I differ in certain areas from other Calvinists;

As do OTs.

Will the real Calvinist please stand up?

See how that works?

It doesn't do much good to insists that Boyd, Pinnock, Sanders, and Rice are the real OTs, and everyone else is just a sect of OT.

If you are going to argue against what OTs say here, then you need to know what OTs here say and argue against the individual points that the OTs here make instead of lumping them all together.

Do you understand what I am saying?

 

[Tambora]

I would have to say that I think most who call themselves Calvinists, particularly the newbies, have never even read Calvin's Institutes,

No one needs to read Calvin's Institutes.
Scripture is what they need to read.

I am not saying that folks should not read Calvin's Institutes.
I am just saying that it is not necessary.

Likewise, no one needs to read the works of Boyd, Pinnock, Sanders, and Rice to come to an OT view.
Those men are not the all in all of the OT view.
One can come to the conclusion of OT without ever reading a word those men say.

 

[BrianJOrr]

Do you understand what I am saying?

Gotcha. I don't want to have a discussion with straw men, and want to have charitable interaction, not being offensive to OTs.

I ask because I am wanting to discuss these issues with other OTs, other than the handful out there writing and advocating on the subject.

Thanks

 

[intojoy]

The omniscience of God means he knows everything simultaneously. Not just that he knows the future but that he knows all things at the same time

 

[Tambora]

Is the Spirit needed for illumination and sanctification if our wills cannot be changed by the work of the Spirit?

Not all men in scripture that had the Spirit made the right choices.

King Saul comes to mind.

I don't think we can place the Holy Spirit into a cookie cutter mentality.

 

[intojoy]

Not all men in scripture that had the Spirit made the right choices.



King Saul comes to mind.



I don't think we can place the Holy Spirit into a cookie cutter mentality.

Saved people in OT did not have the Holy Spirit in them

 

[musterion]

Well, if man ultimately chooses God, then man can un-choose him, and God can only let him go, for he won't violate his free-willed decision.

What is the Gospel?

I ask because your statement indicates a very low view, if not outright ignorance, of what Paul says God does in, to and for the believer upon faith in Christ.

 

[BrianJOrr]

What is the Gospel?

I ask because your statement indicates a very low view, if not outright ignorance, of what Paul says God does in, to and for the believer upon faith in Christ.

1. Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (We are spiritually lost)

2. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (We deserve to be punished for our sin)

3. Romans 5:8 - but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Gods invitation for a relationship)

4. Titus 3:5 - He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. (No personal actions can save)

5. Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Salvation is a gift)

6. Romans 10: 9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (How to respond to receive Christ)

7. 2 Cor. 5:21 - For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (Gospel in one verse)

 

[BrianJOrr]

What is the Gospel?

I ask because your statement indicates a very low view, if not outright ignorance, of what Paul says God does in, to and for the believer upon faith in Christ.

The portion you quoted of me is a reductio ad absurdum remark I was making. I was trying to argue from an OT position, to try and make the connection from their point of view in regards to my question.

 

[musterion]

But you were not arguing from the OT position, at least not as I understand it. Though I understand and consider some of their points valid and part-way compelling, I do not consider myself OT. Yet even I know enough about them to know you were very likely arguing from the mouth of a strawman.

The absurdist view you lampooned is held by most on TOL...pentecostals, legalists and various cultists. Just ask them. But I know of no OT here on TOL who believes as you purported. If they do, I will stand corrected but I will let THEM correct me. And you.

 

[BrianJOrr]

Any OT want to correct me on this as it pertains to my question on the work of the Spirit in the salvation of man, which musterion is calling me out on? Again, in the OT literature, which has been my primary source in understanding this view, the will just needs to choose rightly. There is no changing of the nature of man's will to submit to God's law; otherwise, God's manipulating of man's will as such could be seen as 'divine rape,' even if for their own good, because it violates a person's freewill. (Sanders, the God Who Risks, 239-240.)

 

[Lon]

:think: Pretty quiet in this section?

 

[Lighthouse]

If my mind is changed it is by the influence of outside stimuli, and through such my desires change.

 

[Nang]

If my mind is changed it is by the influence of outside stimuli, and through such my desires change.

Close . . .

But actually it is the "outside" influence of the Holy Spirit working regeneration, that first changes the heart (affections), and then the new heart's desires change the mind and will to be holy as God is holy.

This new love for God and His Word (commands) produces the sanctified Christian walk.

 

[intojoy]

Close . . .



But actually it is the "outside" influence of the Holy Spirit working regeneration, that first changes the heart (affections), and then the new heart's desires change the mind and will to be holy as God is holy.



This new love for God and His Word (commands) produces the sanctified Christian walk.

Wrong
Faith precedes reg

 

[BrianJOrr]

Wrong
Faith precedes reg

You can't breathe unless you have lungs to breathe with;so it goes with a profession of faith--you must have the regenerated heart first.

 

[intojoy]

You can't breathe unless you have lungs to breathe with;so it goes with a profession of faith--you must have the regenerated heart first.

That's a logical conclusion.

 

[intojoy]

You can't breathe unless you have lungs to breathe with;so it goes with a profession of faith--you must have the regenerated heart first.

The way that the bible treats faith is that it is not a work. But it is an act of the will. Because the will is exercised it is a work. But the bible treats faith in a very unique way in that it is not classified as a work.

Why?

I believe that it is treated as a non work of man because man's total depravity keeps him from faith. The Armenian treats faith as a work and in their belief man takes the first step in salvation, God merely responds to their faith by electing them because he is obligated to their faith.

The way faith is not a work is an antinomy. Calvin chose to force a logical conclusion in his understanding and it is more logical but we are not to accept what makes more logical sense but rather what scripture says. The doctrine of election and predestination is true but it is an antinomy just as the Trinity is one as well. We may not fully comprehend the Triunity of the Godhead but it is scriptural. Faith always precedes salvation yet there is no such thing as unlimited free will. Calvin went beyond what is written by teaching that the elect are saved before they believe.

 

[patrick jane]

The way that the bible treats faith is that it is not a work. But it is an act of the will. Because the will is exercised it is a work. But the bible treats faith in a very unique way in that it is not classified as a work.

Why?

I believe that it is treated as a non work of man because man's total depravity keeps him from faith. The Armenian treats faith as a work and in their belief man takes the first step in salvation, God merely responds to their faith by electing them because he is obligated to their faith.

The way faith is not a work is an antinomy. Calvin chose to force a logical conclusion in his understanding and it is more logical but we are not to accept what makes more logical sense but rather what scripture says. The doctrine of election and predestination is true but it is an antinomy just as the Trinity is one as well. We may not fully comprehend the Triunity of the Godhead but it is scriptural. Faith always precedes salvation yet there is no such thing as unlimited free will. Calvin went beyond what is written by teaching that the elect are saved before they believe.

good post intojoy, this is off subject, but i saw you here, you mentioned in a previous post somewhere about, the wild man whose hand will always smite and live among us ? like a split

 

[intojoy]

good post intojoy, this is off subject, but i saw you here, you mentioned in a previous post somewhere about, the wild man whose hand will always smite and live among us ? like a split

Ishmael