Original Sin and the Calvinists

[Jerry Shugart]

The Westminster Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation":

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

The Calvinists then say that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing exactly what He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!

 

[nikolai_42]

The Westminster Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation":

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

The Calvinists then say that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing exactly what He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!

Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God? What possible justification is there for them to reject God even in the face of all He did in their deliverance?

 

[Epoisses]

The Westminster Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation":

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

The Calvinists then say that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing exactly what He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!

This teaching is correct. We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good. This is Christianity 101 where all men are born sinners and morally corrupt. There wouldn't be much need of a savior to save us from sin if we weren't sinners.....duh! This teaching has nothing to do with predestination but simply states man's true condition which is fallen, corrupt and evil.

 

[Right Divider]

Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God? What possible justification is there for them to reject God even in the face of all He did in their deliverance?

There was always a faithful remnant that did not reject God. What about them?

 

[nikolai_42]

Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
I Kings 19:18

 

[God's Truth]

Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God? What possible justification is there for them to reject God even in the face of all He did in their deliverance?

They missed the pleasures of sin. Is that not reason enough? They wanted this life easier and more gratifying for the flesh. They were hungry for better food, they argued and they pleased themselves.

 

[nikolai_42]

They missed the pleasures of sin. Is that not reason enough? They wanted this life easier and more gratifying for the flesh. They were hungry for better food, they argued and they pleased themselves.

In other words, they were subject to the fallen nature.

These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 29:1-6

 

[God's Truth]

In other words, they were subject to the fallen nature.

These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 29:1-6

Did Moses, Aaron, and Miriam?
What exactly are you saying?
God gives ears and sight to those who obey and repent.
Many are called few are chosen.

 

[God's Truth]

This teaching is correct. We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good. This is Christianity 101 where all men are born sinners and morally corrupt. There wouldn't be much need of a savior to save us from sin if we weren't sinners.....duh! This teaching has nothing to do with predestination but simply states man's true condition which is fallen, corrupt and evil.

Can do NOTHING good?
You are not considering the full counsel of God.

 

[God's Truth]

There are many who still have not repented of believing some falseness or another.

There is still falseness intertwined with what is true.

We can do right and obey then be saved.

Why teach that we cannot?

 

[nikolai_42]

Did Moses, Aaron, and Miriam?
What exactly are you saying?
God gives ears and sight to those who obey and repent.
Many are called few are chosen.

They saw. Remember the order God gave Isaiah :

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:9-10

The point being that the opening of the heart, eyes and ears has to come first.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God?

The same reason why Adam sinned. He was created spiritually alive but despite that he went his own way instead of the LORD's way.

That is the peril of free will.

If a person sins because of his nature then he would have an excuse for sinning but the Scriptures reveal that a man is without excuse.

 

[God's Truth]

They saw. Remember the order God gave Isaiah :

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:9-10

The point being that the opening of the heart, eyes and ears has to come first.

What you say is not true.

Those who have a right heart are the ones who hear and see, for God makes sure of that.

Jesus tells us how to makes our hearts right.

JESUS TELLS US HOW to make our hearts right.

Jesus saves those who obey him EVEN IF THEY do not understand but obey ANYWAYS.

 

[nikolai_42]

What you say is not true.

Those who have a right heart are the ones who hear and see, for God makes sure of that.

Jesus tells us how to makes our hearts right.

JESUS TELLS US HOW to make our hearts right.

Jesus saves those who obey him EVEN IF THEY do not understand but obey ANYWAYS.

You're arguing things that can only follow what comes first. Without a foundation, none of this is even possible. Why not obey the next man who comes along and says "God says to do X" when X is not exactly what is in scripture? Because those who are His will hear His voice. Not those who hear His voice will be His.

 

[God's Truth]

You're arguing things that can only follow what comes first. Without a foundation, none of this is even possible. Why not obey the next man who comes along and says "God says to do X" when X is not exactly what is in scripture? Because those who are His will hear His voice. Not those who hear His voice will be His.

What are you talking about? Jesus tells us what to obey.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good.

If a person can do nothing good because of his nature then how do you explain what Paul wrote here in "bold":

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus tells ALL what to do.

All have a chance to be saved.

 

[nikolai_42]

The same reason why Adam sinned. He was created spiritually alive but despite that he went his own way instead of the LORD's way.

That is the peril of free will.

If a person sins because of his nature then he would have an excuse for sinning but the Scriptures reveal that a man is without excuse.

The prerequisite?

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:19

Likewise, the Israelites hadn't been given a heart, ears or eyes to grasp God's revelation even though He made a covenant with them :

These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 29:1-6

Because we are dead in trespasses and sin, we can't see. But that also means our default position is rebellion against God. Just as the descendants of the Israelites around in Isaiah's day would be made to be hardened to the Word of God by God's own decree (and still be judged)...just as the infants of Isaiah 9 were still slaughtered for what their parents did - man still suffers the consequences of Adam's sin and yet bears responsibility himself. God is able to keep man from sinning but He doesn't. Does that mean we hold Him responsible for man's sin?

 

[nikolai_42]

What are you talking about? Jesus tells us what to obey.

Why listen? What is it about His command that is compelling? Why not listen to someone else instead?

 

[glorydaz]

This teaching is correct. We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good. This is Christianity 101 where all men are born sinners and morally corrupt. There wouldn't be much need of a savior to save us from sin if we weren't sinners.....duh! This teaching has nothing to do with predestination but simply states man's true condition which is fallen, corrupt and evil.

All men?

The Lord Jesus Christ was made like us in every way.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.​