O'Reilly is changing my mind RE "free" college...

[zoo22]

Maybe have the students make lunch and give them credit.
Seriously.
We had that in my High school, not the lunch part but there was a County Wide vocational school you could go to for half the day and become a welder or mechanic or machinist or nurses assistant.

Alice Waters started The Edible Schoolyard Project about 20 years ago at Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School. Not only do the kids grow, cook, and eat their own food, it's incorporated into the entire school curriculum: science, social studies, history, math, etc.

The Edible Schoolyard Yields Seed-to-Table Learning

 

[Nick M]

Social Security is an excellent idea that works exceptionally well when implemented correctly.

Correct, just ask Mr Ponzi.

A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors. Ponzi scheme organizers often solicit new investors by promising to invest funds in opportunities claimed to generate high returns with little or no risk.

The law requires employers to withhold taxes from employee earnings to fund the Social Security and Medicare programs. These are called Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) taxes....The Department of the Treasury manages these funds. The law requires us to invest trust fund assets we don’t need to pay current benefits and administrative expenses. We invest them in interest-bearing obligations of the United States.

Social Security was modeled after the con-artist Charles Ponzi.

 

[PureX]

Alice Waters started The Edible Schoolyard Project about 20 years ago at Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School. Not only do the kids grow, cook, and eat their own food, it's incorporated into the entire school curriculum: science, social studies, history, math, etc.

The Edible Schoolyard Yields Seed-to-Table Learning

If the United States has a long term future, it will be because of ideas like this.

Our society has become far too inter-dependent, and worse yet; ultra-dependent upon 'gainful employment' than is healthy or wise. Allowing the dissolution of family farms and small cottage industries in favor of huge, irresponsible corporate conglomerates was a grave mistake for the vast majority of average citizens, as it has forced nearly everyone to become totally depending upon both government and business for their very survival. And that opened the door for the mass exploitation of the working and middle classes by a small but very empowered wealthy elite. And not only does it make us all very vulnerable to the exploitation of a few greedy and immoral people, it also makes us as a nation very vulnerable to various forms of economic and technological attack by outside entities. Even our once mighty industrial sector is weak and overly dependent on global resources and production.

Sooner or later will pay a dear price for our foolishness. We are already paying a terrible social price as the people who do the work of building and maintaining the nation are being treated worse and worse by their own government and business leaders. Greed has become the order of the day, and everyone suffers the inevitable consequences of this collective immorality.

A new independence movement is long overdue. People getting off the 'grid' and becoming more self-sufficient, so that they are no longer dependent upon the corporate overlords and their paid toadies in the government for their very survival. And new local-centric economies that keep the production, the jobs, and the profits they generate within the communities that generate them.

These things are not that hard to do, and each step in that direction is a step in the right direction, that will bear positive results. But to get the ball rolling we need to start running for local public office, and changing the local laws to allow people to begin working in this direction. All it takes is the will to do it, and a few folks to get the movement started. I think Americans of every political persuasion agree that organized bribery and greed has been driving this nation into the toilet for a long time. And most of us would like to return to a system that puts more control into the hands of individuals and small communities.

Education is key, as always. Religion isn't going to do what needs to be done. And neither is top-down government. Nor is big business. As at the moment these have become more the enemy of a healthy society than our allies.

But of course I'm dreaming, again. It'll never happen.

 

[The Berean]

I think kids need to come out of High School ready to do something besides just go to College.

We have a winner here! At one time high schools used to offer this thing called "industrial arts". High school kids would get training in various trades (machining, welding, automotive maintenance, etc.) as they went to high school. When they graduated they'd had several job offers waiting for them.

The Death Of Shop Class And America's Skilled Workforce


There ares still some high schools that have industrial arts programs.

Half Moon Bay High School- Industrial Arts Programs

 

[PureX]

We have a winner here! At one time high schools used to offer this thing called "industrial arts". High school kids would get training in various trades (machining, welding, automotive maintenance, etc.) as they went to high school. When they graduated they'd had several job offers waiting for them.

Well, since so many of our industries have moved to other nations where their American owners and investors could exploit the low wages and lack of legal protections for foreign labor, there was little call for machinists, welders, and mechanics. I live in the 'industrial belt', where technical schools and industrial apprenticeships were plentiful.

Not no more.

A local ship-repair company recently moved here, and immediately began complaining that they couldn't find enough skilled welders. Well of course they couldn't, no one has hired any welders around here in 30 years. So why didn't the ship-repair company start teaching those skills and hiring the graduates? No, no, that never occurs to them. They want everything handed to them, right now, because they are the mighty "job creators". The same guys who sent all our jobs out of the country for the last 30 years.

 

[fool]

Me too.

But that decision is up to them.

Don't leave it up to them, they're free labor.
Fire the lunch ladies and janitors, make the students run the cafeteria, wax the floors, scrub the bathrooms, tar the roof.

 

[fool]

We = private sector. You won't be paying anything under what I said because the government won't be taxing and spending for higher education, it would be privatized. If you can't pay for higher education but you have potential, an employer could select you, pay your tuition for a trade or associate's degree and then you work for them to pay it back, however long they require. During that time, the worker can save up their own money to pay for university once their contract's over, so that they can finish their education.



If a radio station wants to pay for a young talented person to get a basic communications degree, as long as that person agrees to work for them for 2 or 3 years after they graduate, there's no money coming out of your pocket. The kid can then save up money to pay for university on their own from their own salary.



I said in my previous post that they would be paying for it themselves, from their salary earned by working. I said several times that the system of government tax and spend for higher education doesn't work and that we need a new approach. So, I actually agree with you, despite the knee-jerk reaction.

All I'm adding is that the private sector.... prospective employers.... could pay for a talented young person's first year or two of training (one that they want to hire but can't afford higher education), as long as they agree to work for the employer to pay the service back with their hours. During that time, the kid would actually be able to work and save up enough money to pay for university on their own.

I highlighted the problem with this, that would work for the young talented person but what about the morons?

 

[Town Heretic]

I highlighted the problem with this, that would work for the young talented person but what about the morons?

:think: They could run for Congress.

 

[Quincy]

I highlighted the problem with this, that would work for the young talented person but what about the morons?

I'm not saying that a business has to choose only underprivileged kids with a high gpa, just someone that they feel is worth investing in. Many people don't bother finishing college or university. A lot of debt goes unpaid or doesn't get paid back fast enough to replenish funds. I know it sounds cruel on the surface, but even community colleges already have standards for who they accept. They can work with employers to figure out what that is.

 

[Morpheus]

Hogwash.

Higher education is overrated.

Furthermore... you want to go to college? Great! Pay for it yourself.

Out of curiosity, does it bother you that for centuries most businesses bore the expense of job training through apprenticeships and entry-level jobs where the skills were learned through employment and on-the-job training? Yet over the past 40 years business has transferred the burden of basic job training onto the individual, expecting them to acquire those skills prior to employment at their own expense, thereby greatly expanding the trade and business school "industry". And now, after having gone into debt to pay for what employers used to provide, the pretrained entry-level employee makes no more than untrained entry-level workers used to. From the perspective of an employer this is gre-e-eat; from the perspective of an education industry this is a windfall; but from the position of a young person or parent this is just one more of the many burdens of expense taken off of businesses to be piled on his back in the last 35 years.

I posted this question earlier today, and as yet there has been no response. So I thought that, considering how the discussion has evolved since then, I would point out one example that still follows the ancient training practice successfully even now. Building trades unions and union contractors, in a joint effort, still run apprenticeship programs. Men and women with a minimum of a high school diploma apply and go through a selection process where the most qualified are chosen to fill the open slots each year. The contractors pay half the cost of the educational costs and the union pays the other half out of their education fund which comes from a very small portion of every member's hourly wage (they receive an education then gradually pay for their half of it). Apprentices typically begin working full-time at roughly 45% of the journeyman rate, receiving generally around 5% of the journeyman rate for a raise each 6 months as their training and skills increase. They must attend 12-16 hours of related classes each week as well, and receive at least a C in each class. After 4-5 years, depending on the trade, they become journeymen (or journeywomen). The tradesmen get a good paying career and the contractors have a stable, well-trained workforce, including supervisors and management. Most trade unions now also have arrangements with state universities so that those members so inclined can go on to receive bachelors' degrees in engineering paid for through the same funds as apprenticeship. Credit is given for training classes so that it generally only requires 1 1/2 - 2 years at university to get the degree.

 

[kmoney]

Alice Waters started The Edible Schoolyard Project about 20 years ago at Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School. Not only do the kids grow, cook, and eat their own food, it's incorporated into the entire school curriculum: science, social studies, history, math, etc.

The Edible Schoolyard Yields Seed-to-Table Learning

That's really cool.

 

[fool]

We have a winner here! At one time high schools used to offer this thing called "industrial arts". High school kids would get training in various trades (machining, welding, automotive maintenance, etc.) as they went to high school. When they graduated they'd had several job offers waiting for them.

The Death Of Shop Class And America's Skilled Workforce


There ares still some high schools that have industrial arts programs.

Half Moon Bay High School- Industrial Arts Programs

We need that back but instead of Industrial Arts call it "What can you do beyond a minimum wage level?" Arts.

 

[kmoney]

We = private sector. You won't be paying anything under what I said because the government won't be taxing and spending for higher education, it would be privatized. If you can't pay for higher education but you have potential, an employer could select you, pay your tuition for a trade or associate's degree and then you work for them to pay it back, however long they require. During that time, the worker can save up their own money to pay for university once their contract's over, so that they can finish their education.

I like some of how you're thinking but I'm not sure how widespread a solution it could be. A couple thoughts. I know some companies will pay for someone's education but I don't see many companies doing that for someone who is planning to leave after a few years and get a full university degree, possibly/probably in an unrelated area (unless I'm misunderstanding how you see it working out). Also, I doubt someone will be able to save enough money to pay for the education up front. There would still be loans. If a greater percentage of school expenses are being paid cash then the costs should come down but I'm not sure how much of an effect it could have. Of course, even less debt is better than what we have now.

 

[kmoney]

We have a winner here! At one time high schools used to offer this thing called "industrial arts". High school kids would get training in various trades (machining, welding, automotive maintenance, etc.) as they went to high school. When they graduated they'd had several job offers waiting for them.

The Death Of Shop Class And America's Skilled Workforce


There ares still some high schools that have industrial arts programs.

Half Moon Bay High School- Industrial Arts Programs

A high school in my city is doing a cool thing right now. There is a vo-tech type department in the school and they partnered with a housing organization and some local builders to buy a house that the kids are renovating and it will then be sold. The kids are getting some great experience. :up:

 

[kmoney]

I watched O'Reilly last night and he was talking about the free college thing Pres O wants to instigate... or whatever...

I considered his view and all the sudden it was like... i had one of these moments: :hammer::bang::doh:

or in other words What the HECK was I thinking?!

You could put into ONE word what is wrong with THAT picture...

and we all know what that one word is, don't we?

Government

Think: US Post office...

Think: Obamacare

Think: IRS

Think: Veteran's hospitals

NO! I was in la la land whne I said we should have "free" colleges, even if they are only community colleges.

W/ the gov involved, the college campuses will be even more... uh... well, you know... if this is even POSSIBLE (?) more liberal...

and frankly, I wouldn't even want to go to college if the gov ran it. And yet, the gov already DOES sorta give people $ for college... pell grants

so maybe we could eliminate the pell grant thing and just have the private college assess your financial situation?

I don't know...

but government should take care ONLY of infrastructure (roads, bridges, dams), the military and that is about it... all else should be privatized...



++

Glad to see Papa Bear get you back on the right track.

 

[Morpheus]

Glad to see Papa Bear get you back on the right track.

Papa Bear is on Fox for a reason. Everyone knows he takes everything to extremes.. "Too hot!" "Too high!" "Too hard!"

 

[kmoney]

Papa Bear is on Fox for a reason. Everyone knows he takes everything to extremes.. "Too hot!" "Too high!" "Too hard!"

You forgot too fair and balanced. lain:

 

[jgarden]

7 countries where college is free
Sunday, Nov 2, 2014

The cost of college tuition has skyrocketed, with huge increases over the past five years as college aid has been reduced by state budgets. In Arizona, for example, this increase in tuition has been 77 percent.

Two-thirds of American college students graduate with college debt, and that debt now tops $1.2 trillion. By every indication, college is now more expensive than it has ever been, out of reach of not only poor Americans, but even middle class ones. While various reforms made in the past few years may have helped slow the growth of college costs, they continue to outpace Americans’ ability to pay.

..... seven places where Americans can study for free or at very low cost – and in English! Students just have to be willing to leave the country:

1. Brazil: Brazil’s universities charge registration fees ..... but they do not require regular tuition. Many of them also offer courses in English.

2. Germany: Germany has 900 programs in English, and is eager to attract foreign students to tuition-free universities due to the country’s shortage of skilled workers.

3. Finland: Finland doesn’t have tuition fees but the government does warn foreigners that they have to cover living expenses.

4. France: France does charge tuition – but normally around 200 dollars at public universities.

5. Norway: Norwegian students, including foreigners studying in the country, do not have to pay any college tuition.

6. Slovenia: ..... Slovenia has 150 English-language programs, and only charges a registration fee – no tuition.

7. Sweden: ..... has over 300 English-language programs. Although college there is free, cost of living may be pricey for foreigners

http://www.alternet.org/education/l...llege-these-7-countries-will-educate-you-free

O'Reilly is changing my mind RE "free" college...

While the cost of a college/university education spirals higher and higher leaving 2/3 of American college students mired in over $1.2 trillion of debt, the OP's solution to this dilemma is to turn them all over to the "tender mercies" of the "private sector."

Given the great track record that the private sector has demonstrated in the past, making healthcare affordable to all levels of American society, one can only conclude that higher education will eventually revert back to that reserved for the rich and wealthy.

All of this stands in marked contrast to the approaches adopted by Brazil, Germany, Finland, France, Norway, Slovenia and Sweden who are not only willing to invest in their future by providing free college tuition for all of their own citizens, but have also extended this exemption to foreign students - including their poor American "cousins!"

 

[fool]

O'Reilly is changing my mind RE "free" college...

While the cost of a college/university education spirals higher and higher leaving 2/3 of American college students mired in over $1.2 trillion of debt, the OP's solution to this dilemma is to turn them all over to the "tender mercies" of the "private sector."

Given the great track record that the private sector has demonstrated in the past, making healthcare affordable to all levels of American society, one can only conclude that higher education will eventually revert back to that reserved for the rich and wealthy.

All of this stands in marked contrast to the approaches adopted by Brazil, Germany, Finland, France, Norway, Slovenia and Sweden who are not only willing to invest in their future by providing free college tuition for all of their own citizens, but have also extended this exemption to foreign students - including their poor American "cousins!"

Well there ya go. We'll just send our kids there.
Problem solved.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Aren't there already grants that would pay for community college if one cannot afford it, its called a pell grant - they are usually enough to pay for community college.