Open invite to Freak....
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Freak, was God commanding that murderers be executed during David's time?
So you won't debate criminal justice with fellow Christians, but you'll publically suggest that a Christian who disagrees with you on the matter might be a tool of Satan. Nice.
Freak
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Don't deflect. Answer my question? If you believe the Triune God created the death penalty then tell me why the second person of the Trinity-Jesus--didn't call for Paul's death when He met on the Road to Dasmascus?
Not on my radio program. Because unlike Bob's program my show is geared for the lost. This issue is a in-house debate.
Another stupid comment. Are you born again?
For the same reason God did not demand that David be executed.
Do you know why David was not executed?
By the way Freak, it is irritating that when someone is building an illustration and trying to have a meaningful conversation with you, you refuse to answer simple questions and accuse that someone of deflecting or changing the subject.
Has there ever been a question you have asked me that I have refused to answer? The problem is, the answers I give often fall on deaf ears, and you just repeat your questions. And you often refuse to answer my questions (and others').
In the future, would you please make an effort to answer my questions rather than accuse me of changing the subject? I think we could get to the point a lot faster. I would really apprecitate it.
Bob's show is targeted toward unbelievers, and believe it or not, the death penalty debate is not exclusively interesting to Christians.
That's like saying, "Oh yeah? Well you're ugly!"
Here is a prime example of a question you have asked me (repeatedly) and I have answered (repeatedly). But somehow, it doesn't get through.
Oh well, what's one more:
:sozo: YES!
Freak
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Answer the question, Turbo. If you believe the Triune God [demands] the death penalty then tell me why the second person of the Trinity-Jesus--didn't call for Paul's death when He met on the Road to Dasmascus?
Yes, it is. So answer the simple question.
Yes, the one I've been asking. :kookoo:
From what I hear it isn't. Does he have a Denver Bible Church sermon focus on his broadcast every day?
Non-Christians could care less, for the most part, what our views are about baptism, the death penalty, or the role of the Holy Spirit.
:kookoo:
Turbo already answered this objection brilliantly. Sadly, you missed it entirely, oh well!
All the more reason to debate Bob! Maybe you can stump him with your above dilemma? :think:
Here are my answers (again):Originally posted by Freak
He did. :kookoo:
I must have [missed it].
I'm trying to have a conversation with you, Freak. Sometimes before I answer your questions, I want to clarify a thing or two first to make sure you don't misunderstand my answers. I want to make sure we're on the same page.
That is why I sometimes answer your questions with questions. The answer to your question can often be anticipated by the question I respond with. That is why Knight recognized that I answered your question.
Keep in mind, Freak, that Jesus often answered questions with questions when others challenged Him.
So Freak, when you ask a question, and I ask a question right back, please believe me that I am not avoiding your question. If you don't understand how my question relates to yours, please just be patient and answer it. If I agree with your answer, I will either proceed to answer your question more directly, or I may sometimes need to ask another question first.
But if assume my question is irrelevant, scold me for not answering yours, and copy and paste your question demanding an answer, we get no place fast.
Here is how our conversation could have gone:
Freak: ...tell me why the second person of the Trinity-Jesus--didn't call for Paul's death when He met on the Road to Dasmascus?
Turbo: Freak, was God commanding that murderers be executed during David's time?
Freak: Yes. (*Note: I am assuming this would be your answer since you did not answer me. If you do not think "Yes" is the right answer, please clarify.)
Turbo: Why didn't God demand that David be executed for murdering Uriah the Hittite?
I won't try to guess what your answer to that last question is, but if you answer it, I will answer as well. I have already answered that Paul and David were spared for the same reason.
So, my question to you is: Why did God not demand that David be executed for murder, even though God's command to execute all murderers was certainly in effect at that time?
If you take an honest crack at answering that question, I promise you that I will answer your question.
:first: Post of the Day!
Freak
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The Old & New Covenants are two entirely different covenants--were you aware of this?
The New Covenant is a better Covenant built on better promises. The New is superior to the Old. The New Covenant does not endorse the State's mission of putting to death murderers. Very clear. Yet, you do not see for you refuse to see the truth.
Yes. But not everything changed. For example murder is a sin and a crime regardless of any Covenant that is in effect.
You claim that God not demanding that Paul (who was under the New Covenant) be executed for murder is evidence that God has abolished capital punishment in this time of the New Covenant.
You and I seem to agree that under the Old Covenant, God commanded that every murderer be put to death.
David was under the Old Covenant. David murdered Uriah the Hittite. God did not demand that David be executed. Should we therefore conclude that God abolished capital punishment for those under the Old Covenant?
Shimei’s answer can be applied to Paul or David. Yours cannot.
If Shimei had been answering my question about David, would you have responded like this?:
"Maybe, it is because God didn't endorse the death penalty in the New Covenant. :doh:"
I doubt it. I think you know better.
But I do want to know how you really would answer:
Why did God not demand that David be executed for murder, even though God's command to execute all murderers was certainly in effect at that time?
Freak
New member
Apparently you're basic understanding of the Bible is not up to par.
They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
The New Covenant is superior to the Old one. Now, in the New Covenant you will see there is no endorsement for a state's use of the death penalty.
But Jesus took the sin to another level. If you hate your brother you have committed murder.
Yes. Finally you get it. Good job.
You can't compare the two covenants, my friend. The New is superior to the Old. God dealt with people differently in both covenants. He dealt with David justly and He dealt with Paul justly (Hint: the answer was just there).
God is just and He deals justly. Is that a problem for you? :think:
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Why is it that I answered “Yes,” but you responded as though I had answered “No?”
I will offer another example of something that did not change between the Old and New Covenants: God’s holy nature.
Jesus did not raise the bar. He was pointing out where the bar had been all along.
Something that is consistent with God’s holy nature is righteous. Something that is inconsistent with God’s holy nature is sin. (Do you agree?) God did not become more holy during the intertestimal period.
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:18
And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD. Zechariah 8:17
Freak, was it not a sin for someone to hate his neighbor without cause before Jesus’ time? Jesus is not giving a new commandment, but rather He is making a clarification. Jesus identified Leviticus 19:18 as the greatest commandment second only to “Love God.” We read in Proverbs 23:7 that “as [a man] thinketh in his heart, so is he.” So why should we be surprised that Jesus puts violating that commandment on par spiritually with committing murder?
I assure you, I understood your point all along. I just recognize that it isn’t a good one, because God did the same thing with David and you don’t claim that it signaled the abolition of the death penalty under the Old Covenant.
Also, you have stated that murderers should be punished with prison/hard labor. But although Paul spent time in prison, it had nothing to do with him being a murderer.
If you were consistent, you would believe that since Paul was not punished whatsoever for murder, then the state should not punish murderers in any way. (Not even with prison/hard labor.)
He didn’t demand David be executed for murder. He didn’t demand Paul be executed for murder. How is that different?
Aside from the fact that this contradicts your previous statement, wouldn’t it be better to say that in these two situations God dealt mercifully?
Thank you for answering.
God could have dealt justly by having David executed. But because David repented, Christ would later pay his penalty. I think a more precise answer would be that God is merciful and He deals mercifully with those who humble themselves.
And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 2 Samuel 12:13
When Nathan confronted and rebuked David, David confessed and repented. David loved God and was repentant, so God was merciful to him. Jesus would bear his sin on the cross, and God has the authority to forgive sins, and even allow a murderer to live despite his command to govenments that they must execute murderers.
When Jesus confronted Paul, Paul repented and accepted Christ as his savior. God therefore granted Paul mercy, and did not require that he be put to death. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
But had either David or Paul rejected God's grace and mercy, he would have tasted His justice. God knows what's in a man's heart, but people have a harder time figuring that out. That's why God tells governments to execute every convicted murderer, and man should not second guess Him by sparing the murderers who seem "repentant." Worse still, you want to spare the lives of the unrepentant murderers as well. Well, not completely. You want to lock them up like dogs whether they repent or not. That is neither just nor merciful.
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