One on One: Mr. 5020 & Knight (II)

[Nathon Detroit]

I'm not sure how to answer. What seems extremely logical to me seems utterly illogical to you. I guess you are right. Since the future would be settled (only in God's perspective), than the future would not seem conditional to God, but only to us.

That is indeed where your theology confines you.

What is this? 4 posts in one day. More active than I ever thought this one on one would get.

Awesome eh?

OK, I guess I am ready for your next question if you have one.

 

[Mr. 5020]

That is indeed where your theology confines you.

OK, I guess I am ready for your next question if you have one.

I didn't know the conversation would die. I'll come up with one.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I didn't know the conversation would die.

I didn't think you would acknowledge that the future isn't "conditional".

What else can I say?

If you are comfortable with that theology there isn't much more I can add (at least on that topic).

 

[Mr. 5020]

I didn't think you would acknowledge that the future isn't "conditional".

What else can I say?

If you are comfortable with that theology there isn't much more I can add (at least on that topic).

I thought I had made it clear that my theology does not conflict with true free will, though.

I think that I am no longer on the same page you are.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I thought I had made it clear that my theology does not conflict with true free will, though.

If the future isn't "conditional" there is no such thing as true freewill.

Think about it.

 

[Mr. 5020]

If the future isn't "conditional" there is no such thing as true freewill.

Think about it.

This is why I said earlier, "What seems extremely logical to me seems utterly illogical to you." If God knows what our choice will be, I don't see how that removes the fact that we made the choice.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

This is why I said earlier, "What seems extremely logical to me seems utterly illogical to you." If God knows what our choice will be, I don't see how that removes the fact that we made the choice.

IF.... the future is settled, the future is settled. There is nothing free about a settled future. It's settled!

If God know's that in 9 years from now at a party on December 14th at 8:53PM I will choose to start smoking crack I have no freewill to choose otherwise, correct?

The only way I could have a true freewill would be if the future wasn't settled and I had the REAL ability to choose otherwise.

 

[Mr. 5020]

IF.... the future is settled, the future is settled. There is nothing free about a settled future. It's settled!

This is where your theology confines you.

If God know's that in 9 years from now at a party on December 14th at 8:53PM I will choose to start smoking crack I have no freewill to choose otherwise, correct?

The only way I could have a true freewill would be if the future wasn't settled and I had the REAL ability to choose otherwise.

But you still chose to smoke crack. It wasn't God's choice. It was your choice. Just because God is powerful enough to know you would choose it doesn't mean that you didn't choose it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

But you still chose to smoke crack. It wasn't God's choice. It was your choice. Just because God is powerful enough to know you would choose it doesn't mean that you didn't choose it.

Do I have the ability to choose otherwise and render God's foreknowledge incorrect?

 

[Mr. 5020]

Do I have the ability to choose otherwise and render God's foreknowledge incorrect?

God's foreknowledge does not interfere with your choice.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God's foreknowledge does not interfere with your choice.

Hmmm... that seems to be an answer to a question that I didn't ask.

What I asked was....

Do I have the ability to choose otherwise and render God's foreknowledge incorrect?

 

[Mr. 5020]

Hmmm... that seems to be an answer to a question that I didn't ask.

What I asked was....

Do I have the ability to choose otherwise and render God's foreknowledge incorrect?

It's a trick question, to an extent. God already knows the choice you will make. Therefore, if you choose not to smoke crack, God knows you will not smoke crack. If you choose to smoke crack, God knows you will do so.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

It's a trick question, to an extent. God already knows the choice you will make. Therefore, if you choose not to smoke crack, God knows you will not smoke crack. If you choose to smoke crack, God knows you will do so.

It isn't a trick question at all, yet you are avoiding the answer.

Let me ask it again.... (it's a simple yes or no question)

Do I have the ability to choose otherwise and render God's foreknowledge incorrect?

 

[Mr. 5020]

It isn't a trick question at all, yet you are avoiding the answer.

Let me ask it again.... (it's a simple yes or no question)

Do I have the ability to choose otherwise and render God's foreknowledge incorrect?

The parameters that I have set in this thread don't allow for a 'yes' or 'no' answer. You have the choice to choose whatever you want, but God knows what that choice will be. What you're assuming in your argument is that I believe God made your choice for you. What I am saying is that you will make the choice. God simply knows what that choice will be.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

What you're assuming in your argument is that I believe God made your choice for you. What I am saying is that you will make the choice. God simply knows what that choice will be.

So... you are not going to answer the question are you?

Earlier in this thread you agreed that God used prophecy as a means to affect our future choices. Yet if God already knows our future choices why on earth would He attempt to influence those choices if He already knows what actual choice would be made?

 

[Mr. 5020]

So... you are not going to answer the question are you?

Which part did I not respond to?

Earlier in this thread you agreed that God used prophecy as a means to affect our future choices. Yet if God already knows our future choices why on earth would He attempt to influence those choices if He already knows what actual choice would be made?

Because He also knows what it took to influence you into making that decision.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Which part did I not respond to?

The YES or NO part.

Because He also knows what it took to influence you into making that decision.

So what came first? His knowledge of what it took for you to come to your choice (the influences) or the choice itself?

In other words... was there a point in time when God thought your choice would be otherwise so He therefore knew He needed to influence your choice? Or was He always aware of your final choice and the influencing was merely "going through the motions"? (so to speak)

 

[Mr. 5020]

The YES or NO part.

That is untrue. In post #34, I stated...

The parameters that I have set in this thread don't allow for a 'yes' or 'no' answer.

In other words... was there a point in time when God thought your choice would be otherwise so He therefore knew He needed to influence your choice?

No, because that would make God wrong.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

That is untrue. In post #34, I stated...
No, because that would make God wrong.

If that is true it would be futile for God to attempt to influence a choice that He has known for a millennia in advance that would be made.

Think about it!

CASE STUDY:

According to you....

A millennia prior to Jonah's prophecy to Nineveh God knew that Nineveh would repent and would not be destroyed. Therefore why did God bother to give Nineveh their prophecy of destruction via Jonah?

Keep in mind you have already acknowledged that prophecy is given to influence future choices.

Talk to ya tomorrow! (I am going to bed)

 

[Mr. 5020]

If that is true it would be futile for God to attempt to influence a choice that He has known for a millennia in advance that would be made.

Think about it!

CASE STUDY:

According to you....

A millennia prior to Jonah's prophecy to Nineveh God knew that Nineveh would repent and would not be destroyed. Therefore why did God bother to give Nineveh their prophecy of destruction via Jonah?

I don't understand you anymore. Sleep deprivation, perhaps. God knew that Nineveh would repent if God allowed Jonah to prophecy possible destruction.

Talk to ya tomorrow! (I am going to bed)

Good idea....