One on One: beanieboy's questions get answered.

[Nathon Detroit]

I would. I agree with your problems with it, and would like to figure out the origins, and how one could come to that conclusion.

Again, thanks for the help.

Start here.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Can I ask what they are?

I was reading a book called Stealing Jesus, and the author talked about things it was hard to admit he had a problem with, like the virgin birth.

Because of the personal nature of the question, you have a "I'd rather not answer" option here.

Let me answer by listing some things that I previously HAD a problem understanding, but now I know better.

- I can remember not understanding the concept of OSAS (once saved always saved).

- I can remember not understanding how the earth could be relatively young instead of amazingly old.

- I can remember being confused that I could be confident in God's forgiveness about some serious past sins in my life.

- I can remember not understanding why there where some really bizarre sounding laws in the Old Testement.

Etc.

 

[beanieboy]

Let me answer by listing some things that I previously HAD a problem understanding, but now I know better.

- I can remember not understanding the concept of OSAS (once saved always saved).

- I can remember not understanding how the earth could be relatively young instead of amazingly old.

- I can remember being confused that I could be confident in God's forgiveness about some serious past sins in my life.

- I can remember not understanding why there where some really bizarre sounding laws in the Old Testement.

Etc.

Those are pretty understanding things to have issues with.

Do you ever have, or had, problems with some of the stories, ie, the talking donkey, the flood, God talking (in voice) etc.?

Or what about now - are there things that you question in other denoms, like speaking in tongues, praying to Mary, etc. ?

And when you have these questions, how do you seek answers? How do you know you have come to God's answer, and not the one you want to believe?

(btw, thanks again, today. This is very generous of your time.)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Those are pretty understanding things to have issues with.

Do you ever have, or had, problems with some of the stories, ie, the talking donkey, the flood, God talking (in voice) etc.?

Not really. If God is powerful enough to create something as complicated as the molecule and as vast as the universe I don't find it all that odd that He would be able to grab man's attention in a creative way.

Or what about now - are there things that you question in other denoms, like speaking in tongues, praying to Mary, etc. ?

Of course. I question other denominations all the time and I also rebuke them as much as possible on areas that they are in obvious error.

My goal is not to win arguments yet my goal is to be a right as possible and as close to God as possible. For me... working toward my goal means engaging the folks who disagree with my views.

And when you have these questions, how do you seek answers? How do you know you have come to God's answer, and not the one you want to believe?

God's word!

That is why the Bible is so incredibly important. For if we didn't have it how would we know when we are right or wrong regarding God's will for us?

And believe it or not there really are right and wrong answers for things like....
- Should we be baptized with water.
- Should we still honor the sabbath
- Can we lose our salvation
- Should we pray to Mary or other saints
- Etc.

(btw, thanks again, today. This is very generous of your time.)

It is my pleasure.

 

[beanieboy]

And believe it or not there really are right and wrong answers for things like....
- Should we be baptized with water.
- Should we still honor the sabbath
- Can we lose our salvation
- Should we pray to Mary or other saints
- Etc.

It is my pleasure.

You realize that you opened a whole can of worms, right

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You realize that you opened a whole can of worms, right

:chuckle:

 

[beanieboy]

I have a few questions that popped into my head today:
(answer in your own time)

1. If someone came on the board and said they were Jewish, or Muslim, would it be okay to call them derogatory names so as not to encourage the faith?

2. What is blasphemy against the HS?

3. Why can one not lose their salvation?
If you were christian, and now aren't, why are you still saved?
Or am I misunderstanding that?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I have a few questions that popped into my head today:
(answer in your own time)

1. If someone came on the board and said they were Jewish, or Muslim, would it be okay to call them derogatory names so as not to encourage the faith?

If a new member came on TOL and said "Hi, I am Jewish." or "Hi I am Muslim." it would NOT be OK for another TOL member to call them derogatory names.

2. What is blasphemy against the HS?

The rejection of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which explains why it would be unpardonable.

Think of it this way....
God forgives us in the same manner that He expects us to forgive others

Luke 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Therefore, if a person sins against you and that person never repents or asks for forgiveness that sin is essentially unpardonable.

3. Why can one not lose their salvation?
If you were christian, and now aren't, why are you still saved?
Or am I misunderstanding that?

In the dispensation of grace God seals the believer into the Body of Christ when they repent and accept Christ's work on the cross (2Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). This of course is very different from any other dispensation in the Bible which causes some confusion for those who do not realize that God's "house rules" have changed.

It's difficult for many folks to...
2Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

THEREFORE . . .
If walking away from Christ would be sinful (and it would be) it only makes sense that even the sin of rejection is covered the same as any sin in this dispensation.

If someone has been actually saved (with a pure heart) God will remain faithful and will consider them holy and blameless until the day of redemption.

2Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

If we had to work to maintain salvation through grace it wouldn't be grace at all would it?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[beanieboy]

If a new member came on TOL and said "Hi, I am Jewish." or "Hi I am Muslim." it would NOT be OK for another TOL member to call them derogatory names.

I'm glad to hear that.

The rejection of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which explains why it would be unpardonable.

Is this different than rejection of Jesus as you PL&S?
As a Lutheran, we rarely talked about the HS, so most of us were never sure what the blasphemy was. It's blasphemous to make a joke about what Jesus said on the cross. So, we were always worried that if we made a joke about the HS, we were going to hell.

When I was a kid, I used to sing in church. Unable to read, I would sing along, "cast me not awayyy from your presence, and take out the Holy Spirit from me..." When I was 7, I read the words: "take NOT the Holy Spirit from me". :shocked: Then having learned about blasphemy of the HS, I lived in fear for months before I explained to my parents why I was acting so strangely in church.

Think of it this way....
God forgives us in the same manner that He expects us to forgive others

Luke 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Therefore, if a person sins against you and that person never repents or asks for forgiveness that sin is essentially unpardonable.

But didn't Jesus say, "father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"?
He was pardoning sin before repentence, and dying for sin before repentence.
Do you not forgive people until they ask for forgiveness?

In the dispensation of grace God seals the believer into the Body of Christ when they repent and accept Christ's work on the cross (2Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). This of course is very different from any other dispensation in the Bible which causes some confusion for those who do not realize that God's "house rules" have changed.

It's difficult for many folks to...
2Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

THEREFORE . . .
If walking away from Christ would be sinful (and it would be) it only makes sense that even the sin of rejection is covered the same as any sin in this dispensation.

If someone has been actually saved (with a pure heart) God will remain faithful and will consider them holy and blameless until the day of redemption.

2Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

If we had to work to maintain salvation through grace it wouldn't be grace at all would it?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

So, technically, I am saved??? :king:

I'll really have to think long and hard about that.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I'm glad to hear that.

Is this different than rejection of Jesus as you PL&S?
As a Lutheran, we rarely talked about the HS, so most of us were never sure what the blasphemy was. It's blasphemous to make a joke about what Jesus said on the cross. So, we were always worried that if we made a joke about the HS, we were going to hell.

When I was a kid, I used to sing in church. Unable to read, I would sing along, "cast me not awayyy from your presence, and take out the Holy Spirit from me..." When I was 7, I read the words: take OUT the Holy Spirit. Then having learned about blasphemy of the HS, I lived in fear for months before I explained to my parents why I was acting so strangely in church.

Many churches have a hard time shedding the tendency to be overly legalistic which causes confusion about God and His relationship with us.

But didn't Jesus say, "father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"?

Jesus said those words in regard to Him being crucified.

It wouldn't be a good idea to build an entire theology based on a single story that you may be taking out of context.

The key words in Jesus request were.... "for they know not what they do". Now lets review . . . they knew they were executing an innocent man so what was it that they were doing that they weren't aware of?

Jesus knew that those who were crucifying Him had no idea that He was actually God. Jesus mercifully didn't want those crucifying Him to have that massive burden placed on them for all of eternity. Unless all the folks responsible for nailing Jesus to the cross later repented it is very likely they are all in hell, yet it is also possible that the Father has forgiven them (or eased their burden) in regard to nailing the Son of God to the cross.

He was pardoning sin before repentence, and dying for sin before repentence.

That isn't what He was doing. He was ASKING that the Father to forgive them for what they were unaware of doing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yet moreover beanie, you know what you are doing! You know you are an abomination to God so why would you choose this story in an attempt to justify your behavior?

Even if all that I already stated regarding this passage weren't accurate it still wouldn't apply to you.

Would it?

Do you not forgive people until they ask for forgiveness?

That would be sort of weird don't you think?

So, technically, I am saved???

How so?

Have you repented, asked God to forgive you of your sin, believed that God died for you and rose on the third day? And done all of this with a PURE heart?

 

[beanieboy]

Yet moreover beanie, you know what you are doing! You know you are an abomination to God so why would you choose this story in an attempt to justify your behavior?

Yikes! YAHTZEE! (I wasn't talking about homosexuality. I never mentioned it, never even thought of it.)

I wasn't talking about that.
Yes, I'm very aware of what I am doing.

But I haven't sinned against you. One could argue that I am sinning against God, I suppose.

But what I am talking about are those who sin against you.
A coworker says something really hurtful to you, because he's just kind of a jerk.
Do you forgive him, or are you justified in not forgiving him, because he didn't ask forgiveness? And if you are justified in not forgiving him, what does that intail? Hatred? Anger? Being cruel in return?

Would it?



That would be sort of weird don't you think?

No. I find it harder to hold on to anger, than to simply forgive, turn the other cheek, all of that, and in turn, the person usually lets down their defenses, and says they are sorry.
But returning blow for blow usually builds walls, not bridges.

Have you repented, asked God to forgive you of your sin, believed that God died for you and rose on the third day? And done all of this with a PURE heart?

Hello?? I was raised Christian.
I've talked to God since I can remember (yes, I used to lay in the yard and stare at the clouds and have the kind of conversations I'm having with you, but with God at 4 yrs old. )
I was confirmed. I went to church every Sunday.
I went to bible camp.I went to summer bible school.
At 18, I spoke in tongues for the first time, and for several years after that, was rather fanatical about God.
(If you haven't noticed, I know the bible well.)
I've received Jesus into my heart a good half dozen times (you are often afraid, as a child, with the fear of hell, that it "didn't take")

So, yes, I had.

 

[beanieboy]

Sorry. Yes, another question. I warned you.

I have this rep, after simply asking the question of how I was attention starved:
Because you stay where you aren't wanted. Go join a quilting bee.

Is this true? Am I not wanted here? Because if so, it is against my beliefs that I should stay, because it is offending another unnecessarily. (don't be afraid to be honest)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

But what I am talking about are those who sin against you.
A coworker says something really hurtful to you, because he's just kind of a jerk.
Do you forgive him, or are you justified in not forgiving him, because he didn't ask forgiveness? And if you are justified in not forgiving him, what does that intail? Hatred? Anger? Being cruel in return?

Saying hurtful things or being rude are not necessarily sinful so in those cases I may "forgive" without repentance.

Don't confuse civility with morality.

No. I find it harder to hold on to anger, than to simply forgive, turn the other cheek, all of that, and in turn, the person usually lets down their defenses, and says they are sorry.
But returning blow for blow usually builds walls, not bridges.

SEE ABOVE.

Hello?? I was raised Christian.

So what?

I've talked to God since I can remember (yes, I used to lay in the yard and stare at the clouds and have the kind of conversations I'm having with you, but with God at 4 yrs old. )

So what?

I was confirmed. I went to church every Sunday.

DOUBLE So what?

I went to bible camp.I went to summer bible school.

So What?

At 18, I spoke in tongues for the first time, and for several years after that, was rather fanatical about God.

So what?

None of those things will save you.

(If you haven't noticed, I know the bible well.)

No offense but I think that YOU THINK you know a lot about the Bible. Based on what you post here at TOL I would assert you don't know very much about the Bible.

I've received Jesus into my heart a good half dozen times (you are often afraid, as a child, with the fear of hell, that it "didn't take")

I don't think that classifies as "with a PURE heart".

So, yes, I had.

Based on what you have just told me I would say you are NOT saved.

Throw in the fact that you are openly homosexual and I think the evidence is somewhat overwhelming.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Sorry. Yes, another question. I warned you.

I have this rep, after simply asking the question of how I was attention starved:
Because you stay where you aren't wanted. Go join a quilting bee.

Is this true? Am I not wanted here? Because if so, it is against my beliefs that I should stay, because it is offending another unnecessarily. (don't be afraid to be honest)

I don't understand your question.

If you were not wanted here I could have banned you (or asked you to leave) years ago.

 

[beanieboy]

Saying hurtful things or being rude are not necessarily sinful so in those cases I may "forgive" without repentance.

Don't confuse civility with morality.

SEE ABOVE.

So what?
So what?
DOUBLE So what?
So What?
So what?
No offense but I think that YOU THINK you know a lot about the Bible. Based on what you post here at TOL I would assert you don't know very much about the Bible.
I don't think that classifies as "with a PURE heart".

Based on what you have just told me I would say you are NOT saved.

Throw in the fact that you are openly homosexual and I think the evidence is somewhat overwhelming.

I wasn't homosexual then.
So, you are now saying that although I prayed to God, asked Jesus into my heart, spoke in tongues, and repented of sin since ever I can remember, even though I called myself Christian, believed Jesus was the Son of God, believed that it was necessary to repent of sin and accept the Free Gift, etc., I was never christian???

Then, aparently, repenting, asking Jesus into your heart, even accepting the filling of the HS isn't enough to be saved.

I can't respond to this anymore today, because I'm too angry.

I will admit that I am not christian now.
But I was then.
I was when I was 4.
I was when I was 10.
I was when I was 14 and was confirmed.
I was when I received the gift of tongues.

Say whatever you will about me now, but do NOT judge what I was then.
I swore by Christianity, I led people to Christ.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I wasn't homosexual then.
So, you are now saying that although I prayed to God, asked Jesus into my heart, spoke in tongues, and repented of sin since ever I can remember, even though I called myself Christian, believed Jesus was the Son of God, believed that it was necessary to repent of sin and accept the Free Gift, etc., I was never christian???

Then, aparently, repenting, asking Jesus into your heart, even accepting the filling of the HS isn't enough to be saved.

All I am saying is based on what you have told me I would give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't accept Christ with a PURE HEART.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

 

[beanieboy]

All I am saying is based on what you have told me I would give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't accept Christ with a PURE HEART.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

So, when I was 4 and asked Jesus into my heart, or 7, or 8 (many people taught that I might not have had a PURE heart the last time), it "didn't take"???

Then I think the whole thing is bologna!
If a 7 yr old can't pray for Jesus to come into his heart, because, by your indication, I was filled with homosexual lust, and wasn't serious, or pure of heart (I was 7!!), then this whole thing is a sham.I had nothing to repent for, except maybe stealing a candy bar once!

I think you hate the idea that I might be saved.
In my opinion, I don't agree with OSAS, but since you do, you would have to admit that I am saved, and that upsets you.

Do NOT judge who I was.
I firmly believed in God and Jesus.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Say whatever you will about me now, but do NOT judge what I was then.
I swore by Christianity, I led people to Christ.

Does this really matter?

Do you want to be saved?

If not, why care? Why bother to argue that you were a Christian?

Yet....

If so, what would it hurt to affirm your desire to live with God in heaven?

 

[beanieboy]

Does this really matter?

Do you want to be saved?

If not, why care? Why bother to argue that you were a Christian?

Yet....

If so, what would it hurt to affirm your desire to live with God in heaven?

What does it matter?
I've already done it once, or to be more specific, about 6 times, and asked for God to fill me with the Holy Spirit, and NONE OF IT COUNTS, according to you.

So, why would it matter?

It might not take this time either.

Jesus crucifiction works like something made by Ronco.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I think you hate the idea that I might be saved.
In my opinion, I don't agree with OSAS, but since you do, you would have to admit that I am saved, and that upsets you.

It doesn't updet me in the least!

If we both end up in heaven I will be joyous! I will know then that you were saved but living your life in rejection to God.

Yet, because I care . . . I will give you the benefit of the doubt and continue to assume you are not saved.

I certainly don't want to get to heaven and say to myself... where is beanieboy? I thought he said he was saved?