Isaiah 48:3-7
3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; 5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. 6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. 7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
Great verses to post a reply to Will Duffy's Open Theism verses as it touches on many of them. Ty for the quote.
opentheism.org
1) God hopes His prophecies will fail.
-Awkward statement if you aren't Open Theist. It presupposes that God 'hopes.' God is unwilling that any should perish but it would be awkward to suggest God 'hopes' that all men will come to Him. Is it true that He'd like nothing more than that? Of course, but He doesn't hope against reality and we know per scripture that the wicked have a day for destruction. While it may seem to be not worth mentioning here, Open Theists use words and expressions that intimate something about God's nature that most will not accept. Doubt, for instance, is antithesis in scripture to faith. I've never (ever) seen a verse that God 'hopes.' A search for "God hoped" or "God hopes" produces nothing. Hope is relegated to man alone. "If" statements do mean conditional, but not all prophecies are if statements. To be more specific than Duffy here: God's conditional prophecies do come through, they do not fail, rather there is an either/or statement whereby the prophecy does in fact come true and not fail. These are given to give hearers a choice. 2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
"God hopes His prophecies will fail" is awkward.
2) God exists in time
-partially true. He interacts akin to the same way I interact with my fish: My hand is wet. God has never had a beginning. This concept alone is without duration. Duration and any word like it is time constrained and finite. We have few words that intimate an eternal non-beginning: Always existed/exists John 8:58 "Before Abraham existed, I AM" is completely true both as His name and as an expression that is beyond time. I Am is a term that is beyond time constraints. When we read 'in the beginning' it is specifically creation's beginning. Everything of or in creation is finite. Scientists would intimate that the universe is infinite. It cannot be. One day it and the earth will be no more. Necessarily, one must entertain the idea that God is not limited to a time frame: we are finite, He is not. There is no time frame for eternity. No succession can quantify or qualify that which is beyond duration (a finite consideration). You can 'think' of infinite amounts of time and never, never reach infinite. It is well beyond durative ideas and language in and of itself. Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. 2 Timothy 1:9 Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages (chronos) began. Jude 1:25
To the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time (aeon - ages, time) and now and forever. Amen.
3) really an extention of #2 and not separate: - God has Qualities that can Only be had if He Exists in Time
A being can be patient, for instance, without 'showing' He is patient. It doesn't take time to be patient, it takes the quality of patience to be patient and time (for us) the frame-work for its expression. Patience is an ability to allow things to continue until such a time as it can be corrected, but One can be patient by its virtue without expression. Will Duffy is talking about the 'expression' of patience to us. On point, it means he has confused patience with its verb. It is true God interacts in time with us. That it is necessary? Only in the sense that my hand gets wet helping out my fish. I don't have to be in the tank with it. Scripture says God cannot be contained by His creation. 1 Kings 8:27 1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
4) God acts externally in sequence
A) Which does not eliminate 'not' acting/only being able to act in a time-considered constraint. It is an intimation that God cannot do anything unless there is time. This cannot be true of an infinite being. B) It is both/and, not either/or. If one can be shown to be exclusive, then let that argument present itself. I know of no intimation, let alone assertion that has worked in the declaration to date. An eternal nonbeginning is already a consession that creation is different than God's existence. Any time we argue from a finite position, our logicking is finite and thrust upon the infinite. 2 Timothy 1:9 Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.
"From eternity" is without any time consideration or constraint, implicitly.
5) really an extention of #4 - God Experiences Sequence Internally
There isn't a contention on point.
6) God Says Certain Things Happened that Never Entered His Mind.
In in of itself, this is a scripture reference (Jeremiah, Isaiah) thus no contention on the title.
Will Duffy: "God had never commanded, spoke, nor even had a thought that men would practice such a thing."
It is a paraphrase that isn't accurate. "Never entered My mind" is not the same as "never even had a thought that men would practice it." Such is a liberty with the text in which Will asserts that it shows all other theologies to be wrong. It is the extrapolation paraphrase that asserts this and it isn't correct. We all say "let the text speak for itself" and we need to be careful when extrapolating lest we build a faulty argument that doesn't prove out. Will Duffy has made that error here. Literally: "It never entered my mind" is about sacrificing children. It doesn't mean He never thought a man would do it (it had already been happening hundreds of years prior) Leviticus 18:21
7) God Indicates the Future is Uncertain by saying perhaps, by chance, lest...
Jeremiah 26:3 Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings. NKJV has 'perhaps.' All English translated words have to be looked up for meaning and context as not all ideas convey clearly in English. We all have concordances: "hence perhaps" is given as suggestive of 'if so be.' Judgement and warning are given prior to God's actions because He is longsuffering and even in disobedience is teaching. "If so be" is much different than 'perhaps everyone will listen.' The same is exactly true of Exodus 13:17 and Jeremiah 36:3 and Ezekiel 12:3, all based on a NKJV rendering of 'perhaps.' I've been accused of not reading the plain language of the text. Which text? The Living Bible? KJV? We all have concordances for a reason and only NKJV inserts 'perhaps.'
8)God Says He Repents and Changes His Mind and His Actions
Nowhere in all of scripture will we find a modern colloquialism that God 'changes His mind.' Open Theists often use this phrase yet it is found nowhere in scripture. Will Duffy uses 'repented' here in context, not of 'doing something different' but a change of mind which is damaging. Repent means to not do something, not changing one's mind. In everyone's concordance, 'repent' is the last word given for translation. Repent is a good word but the full meaning of the word is "to have pity" which is far and away from a change of mind: always a colloquialism with adverse baggage.
9) God Says Things Are Possible that would be Impossible if the future were settled or decreed.
There are examples here but Will never asserts anything or explains 'why' it would be impossible. What he does is makes a scriptural list of things and concedes at the end that with God, all things are possible. It is hard to address it either in agreement or contention on point. For me, it needs a rework. Let me take the title for examination: "Things are possible that would be impossible [if God decreed a future event]. Such is circular in assertion and weird. I want to say "Of course things that are impossible are impossible and certainly things that are possible are possible." I could guess at the issue of concern but it needs a whole rework (Will Duffy, if you are reading...)
10) 10 - God Says He Will Do Something that He Never Does.
No. He never did or does. "I will drive out," isolated from rich scriptural reading and context just a few chapters away says this is conditional. That it wasn't given pedantically in the next couple of chapters? This is sloppy theological bin work. God makes conditional statements: If/then. See Joshua 23:12 Otherwise, if you go back in any way, and hold to those left of these nations, these that remain among you, and shall marry them and go in to them and they to you,
Jos 23:13 know for a certainty that Jehovah your God will no more drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and whips in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which Jehovah your God has given you.
11) God expects that Something Will Happen that Doesn’t Happen.
Will Duffy doesn't explain his theology here, just makes a statement without contributing thoughts. Sanders has said "God makes mistakes." Will Duffy may be additionally adding "God doesn't know what is going to happen, see? He expected good grapes."
As with the text-proofing above, there is a lack of further informative reason. We may prooftext at times but need to be corrected when correction is available. Duffy's first example is "God expected good grapes" from Isaiah 5 "Isa 5:1 Now I will sing to my Beloved a song of my Beloved concerning His vineyard. My Beloved has a vineyard in a very fruitful hill." The "I" is Isaiah and 'to' is to the Lord. Part of the song is "I expected good grapes." Isaiah's song, to God. The KJV nor NKJV use the word 'expect.' Rather "I looked for good grapes and none were found. Analogy, especially in a song Isaiah was singing, is analogy. We aren't grapes, nor should we believe God caught unaware. He gave conditional covenants and told already of the results of disobedience. There were good grapes. Isaiah was the principal of a prophets college with a few other known prophets. 1) It is incorrect that God 'expected something and didn't get it. 2) Expect is an English word in few bible translations and 3) He did get good grapes. This was a song, of which the main message is to convey God with Judah and the problems of disobedience and hearts far from Him. A song is a quote, we might quote a whole song or whole poem but we rarely force every lyric to mean what we want it to mean and we do not take any one idea from song and make it a truth when it is analogy.
12) "God increases and Learns for He must increase."
This is process theology 0.o God is all there is "without Him nothing exists that exists. I Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. If God knows 'all there is to know' then "no," not even in Open Theism does God 'learn.' Learning means 'Doesn't know everything.' God is the originator of everything. Much can be said here in rebuttal but it needs to be said only Process theologians, who see God as 'emerging' and growing, and it'd seem no few open theists. It goes without saying most view this as heresy and antibiblical. There is no verse in all of scripture that says the Father 'learns' anything. Jesus became flesh, and while in the flesh not drawing on His Deity, He 'grew in wisdom and stature.' There is no such restriction today.
13) God shows regret
The repentance of God has been discussed above, regret is connected. Pitied, regretted, sighed. The word used for 'regret' is a Hebrew word that means to sigh. The Greek Septuagint says 'turn away' απεστρεψεν, the same idea we use for repentence, not as a feeling of remorse, but as Will Duffy says: To turn away. Properly understood: "I am turning away from keeping Saul as king."
14) God Wants to See What Men Will Do so He tests men, looks to see, searches, and didn’t know what men would do.
Will Duffy is saying here, if unclearly, that God cannot know what men will do without 'finding out' what they will do. Such has no account for A) God making every synapse in our head, B) God knowing our thoughts before we speak them C) God knowing our hearts and D) intimates and brings us backwards to God "Learning" and God being caught by surprise. God does not need to be limited to love and care for us. A test isn't for God to learn something, it is for the 'student' to show what they have learned. Will Duffy has got it completely backwards. God doesn't test to see how good He has done, He tests us rather, which reveals to ourselves how well we listened and studied. As a teacher, I've never given a test 'to see what the kids would do.' I give tests so they know how well they are apprehending. Them getting an A or C doesn't do a lot for me as a teacher and even with limited knowledge, I know pretty much who is going to get what. I didn't 'find out anything' testing them. It is an odd idea to take away from scriptures. The KJV doesn't say 'to test but to 'prove' your love for God.
15)God Does Not Have All Present Knowledge.
At least the Open Theist believes it but it doesn't float very well. "When" Jesus was in the flesh, He grew in stature and wisdom. It does not mean the Father didn't nor that The Lord Jesus Christ has that limitation in His glorified body. Colossians 1:17 "In Him all things work and hold together.
16) God Intervenes to Prevent what could Otherwise Happen and addresses contingencies.
This doesn't sound like presentism to me. It sounds like there is a very real 'otherwise happening.' I've little problem on point. I suppose it is addressing more extreme forms of Christianity such as fatalism?
17) God Indicates Certain Prophecies Will Go Unfulfilled. We usually call these 'conditional.' There is no prophecy, without qualification that hasn't been fullfilled (unconditional). Will Duffy does a very short paragraph so not much to address other than talking about two different kinds of prophecy unless by 'certain' he means 'unconditional.' Certain might rather be (how I take it) 'conditional' prophecies as those 'certain' ones.
18) God Gives Men Choices and Options
I'd think this addressing fatalism and what Open Theism seems to fear the most: Us as robots. The dynamic of relationship is a need to 'be one as We are one' and responsibility for our choices and actions.
19) God More Explicitly Says He Does Not Know What Will Happen
Already addressed this and see none of the scriptures given (3 of them) supporting God saying explicitly that He doesn't know what will happen. This one needs work.
20) God Says He Will No Longer Do Something He Said He Would Do
In and of itself, this isn't precise enough to raise an eyebrow. It intimates God breaks promises. The simple redress is 'conditional' promises are already broken by people, not God. On point it is much more accurate to say "God says He will no longer do something if Israel/Judah breaks covenant. The conditions were fair and the breach was on man's part, not God's: exactly backwards from the assertion given.
21) God Did Things Before the Creation
The link given says God does things in time. True, like my hand wet in a fishtank. It is wet while it remains. Time is always finite like a segment line _______ or ray -----------> The correlation is mathematically the same. God's time would be infinite <--------->
Note there is nothing you can meaningfully attach to a line other than as it interacts with a segment or a ray. We don't want to confuse a segment nor a ray with an unnending line. They intersect and interact only when and where they are part of the line that isn't limited to points, segments, nor rays. We as creations, are the points, segments, rays. God is not but in that it is a part of the line that has no limit. Time consideration is this simple. For God interacting in time, it is as simple as when we are a part/portion sharing His infinity. In effect, you could entertain that God is immutable or that He is always moving in such a way that a line is always moving infinitely. Immutability is a good word, but there is a sense of finiteness that it doesn't convey well. Generally, theologians are intending to intimate a finiteness to God but trying to encapsulate the idea that nothing exists that exists without God thus "the unmoved mover." These are all good philosophical theological contemplations good for all of us to consider, to broaden and entertain that our theological boxes might need expanding (they do, we see through a glass darkly). 1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1 John 3:2 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. I estimate a few Open Theist are bothered by mystery and glass-darkly appeals but please entertain only the intimation and clear expiation of the scriptures here: none of us have it all figured out if Paul and John didn't. We want to be clear, precise, and biblical. Think of all our theologies as a journey: hopefully we are all continuing to study and entertain scriptures to be molded more and more like the Son until we see Him face to face.
22) Things that God Became (God can change)
John 1:3 Nothing exists that exists without Him. He is going to make another heaven and earth. Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not... While I agree the context is 'therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed' but it is because He doesn't change. The whole premise is based on His character that never changes. Duffy is confusing actions with character on point. God 'became' man, but entertain John 1:3 in light of that understanding: Becoming man was everything He already created. Note as well that God is 3 persons. The Father never became man (unchanging). In all of this we'd have a lot of agreement but I and most theologians draw a stark line when considering these. It'd thus be more accurate to say "The Son became a man" etc.
23,24) God's People Believe God Can Change His Mind.
Should be included in #8. Already addressed the problem with a colloquialism found nowhere in scripture. We don't even change our minds. We have the same minds we always did. "Changing my mind" carries a whishy-washing haphazard tenor. "I changed my mind! I want chocolate!" It isn't true, it is rather that we changed our choice/action and this ties back into conditional vs. unconditional regarding God's decrees, covenants, and prophecies. We don't need to humanize God for relationship. We are in His image (see #21 again for where points, segments, and rays interact with a line).
25) God’s People Believe a Prophecy Does Not Have to Come To Pass
Confusion/imprecise between conditional and unconditional and between promises and covenants:
Deuteronomy 18:20 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Deuteronomy 18:22 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’
The basic problem is sloppy categories. If they are cleared up, split up so that we recognize clear differences, these will fall in place with everybody agreeing more and arguing less. Theology needs precision.
26) The Bible Says Some Things Happen By Chance
Mostly assertion, few scriptures "happen" does not mean chance 0.o This is clearly a priori and assumption from the Open View as such and nothing more. It needs a lot of work. As it sits, there is nothing compelling. Joseph said his entire slavery years were 'for a reason.' Genesis 50:20 John 8:58 says All things (everything) works together for good for those who love Him. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. As Joseph observed: it is better to see God guiding, protecting, interacting than to think we are in a free-for-all where anything can happen. Scripture indicates Pharaoh was 'raised for this purpose.' If relationship with God is our impetus for life, we should think that He is intimately involved in our lives. While one upholds freewill, it should never be at the expense of God guiding, interacting, and knowing the number of hairs on our heads.
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
27) The Bible Describes Men as Omniscient, Unchanging, Having Sovereignty and Foreknowledge
Here Will Duffy disagrees even with some of my Open Theist friends. When discussing 1 John 2:20, we agreed that 'all things' was omniscience, but all things related to their salvation. We'd intimate that even in that, it wasn't omniscience, but all things that were needed for them to understand their salvation. Romans 15:14 likewise isn't saying omniscience. All knowledge in this case wouldn't mean knowing Chinese. It wouldn't mean they knew how to make airplanes. Etc. As for sovereignty: Saul set up his own authority over all Israel. He wasn't however, sovereign over the Philistines (God was/is). The foreknowledge reference is awkward: "They knew me from the beginning." That is technically correct but means something different from foreknowledge
When the term is used for God, it doesn't mean a reflection upon a past meeting. In these last few points, Duffy isn't so much postulating Open Theism as contesting Calvinist tenents, this one Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledg. Compatiblism and Incompatiblism is the general category of discussion debate. This would seem more fruitful than simply saying: "Well, man has it so God has it the same way" or "We should not extrapolate that when scripture says God has it, and we understand man doesn't yet uses it, that God must somehow be interpretted inconsistently." We do know there is a great difference between what man knows and God knows. Such alone must change how we look at man's knowledge (very limited) and God's (without limit). The better tack would be to tackle omniscient, immutable, sovereign, and foreknowing passages concerning God. The topic at hand would have us scripture hopping and proof texting.
28) The Bible Shows Time in Heaven
Including the future
Heaven is a created place which also cannot hold God. All creation 'started' thus time is a consideration. What we extrapolate must synch with all created things as a segment intersects with a line, it is only where they intersect that time is a consideration. My hand is only wet when in the fish tank. God is 'in time' when we interact, the infinite with the finite. For posterity: Both/and not either/or A segment clearly is part of a line, not the whole line but where they intersect.
29) Prayer can change the future
Awkward again (as well as a reiteration of #16) : it confuses 'possibility' with reality. Reality isn't changed by possibility. Rather, we 'actuate' the future in our prayers (rather God does). While God can and does know a difference between what 'is' and what 'may/will be' we are not changing our future, but writing it with God's input/sustaining/help. The idea behind this is "If God knows the future, we can change it." It concedes God's foreknowlege and then says 'but we can change it!'
30) God Gains Experiential Knowledge
Same thing as "God learns" already addressed #12,15
31) The Bible Shows Certain Prophecies Were Not Fulfilled as Given
Reiteration of #17,20
32) Statements not found in the Bible
I'm thinking Will means 'explicitly' here. I'd agree on a few of these though I believe there are explicit verses with a few of these:
- That God is outside of Time
2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before time (chronos) [the world] began. The KJV uses 'world' not to disrupt/disregard 'time' but to mean that both the world and time began at the same time.
- That God knows everything that will ever happen
1 John 3:20 "God, who is greater than our hearts, knows everything. The context is hearts, but the verse says 'greater' before 'everything.' We have intimations that knows things that will or will not happen before they happen.
- That God can intervene in the past
Does Will mean can or 'won't?' Time considerations become colluded because any discussion involves all: past,present,future for considering what 'can be done' because it'd mean 'now' I'm making a difference to the past and while doing it making a different future. We generally relagate such to 'not possible' because of the intersection of past/present/future for even it's consideration. I would simply say this (though it too is wrought with past/present/future issues): God created in 7 days yet it had to sustain the earth with mature trees, fruit, bushes et al. By sheer power alone, God could remake everything we know 'different' without our realizing/knowing something. Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
- That God has decreed everything that will ever happen
Isaiah 41:4 Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the first and the last; I am He.
Isaiah 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
- That God created time 2 Timothy 1:9
Even if it weren't in scripture it is necessarily a part of Creation. Many Open Theists believe 'time' is a construct (by finite minds in observation). Very simply: . ._______. .________> <--------> Only one of these can and does represent God. Time deals with all the rest, not the last one. Time is impossible to calculate, quantify, speak to meaningfully to God's eternal being. We know that time is created in that it must be understood, grasped, appreciated with begin/stop points and durative distances.
- That God exists in the past and or the future John 8:58
- That God knew us before the foundations of the Earth.
God knew of Josiah 300 years before he was born and what he'd do 1 Kings 13:2
It is not unreasonable to assume He knew you and me before we were born. Jeremiah 1:5 "I knew you before I formed you..."
Psalm 139:16 Before I was conceived all my days were written in your book."
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestine to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Isaiah 44:2 Thus says the Lord who made you, who formed you from the womb and will help you: Fear not, O Jacob my servant, Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
