On the omniscience of God

[marke]

What in the world are you talking about?!!!

Jonah was NOT a racist and it was not "Jonah's one-sided judgment message" it was GOD's one sided message! It is quite thoroughly recorded right there in the pages of your own bible. One thing was prophesied and something else happened. God changed His mind! The whole point of the story is that it was God who changed His mind! You can rationalize it away all you like but I'm going to stick with the plain reading of God's word while you can stick with your personal opinions and teachings of the men.

Clete

P.S. DO NOT under any circumstances read Bob Enyart's book! (Not that your were ever going to anyway.) You're not nearly as honest as I had given your credit for and it would be a waste of your time. You're one who believes what he wants and nothing else.

Jonah did not want to preach the Gospel to the Ninevites and even after he did he wanted them to die. Jonah did not tell the Ninevites that God is known to repent of the evil He pronounces against a nation if they repent of their sin, but the Ninevites found that out for themselves in spite of Jonah's abbreviated message.

No prophecy failed.

 

[Clete]

Which is why you are on ignore. I'm not in ANY way a liar.

I couldn't possibly care less about being on a liar's ignore list, Lon! That goes double for you! I can't hardly force myself to read more than three sentences of your pretentious babblings anyway. You're so full of yourself it's disgusts me and your posts are so openly irrational that they're literally laughable! That one were you were trying to argue that reason doesn't work just had me laughing out loud! I decided to leave that as the last word on that thread as the perfect proof that you're a complete blithering idiot.

And yes, you are a liar! You say things that there is no way at all that you didn't know were false when you said them. You knew as you typed that post that you were twisting things and knowingly ignoring facts of history that have been established here on this website countless times by a dozen or more people in posts that I know for a fact that you've read and that you could have no rebuttal for because the evidence is incontrovertibly clear that the only reason ANYONE who calls themselves a Christian and believes that God is timeless is because of Augustine of Hippo, who imported the belief from the Classics in the late 4th century. (Wow! A 93 word sentence! You better read that one twice to allow that fancy education of yours to kick in!)

There is no Jewish tradition or teaching of a timeless God, nor is there any hint of the belief in Christian doctrine (including even Catholic doctrine) prior to the 4th century. It is not biblical and it isn't even rational and you know it! You know it and don't care! You know it and blab it all over the place anyway. That makes you a liar. You are here intentionally trying to deceive people into ignoring the evidence to the contrary and accepting your paganism as biblical Christianity. Well, it isn't biblical Christianity and you don't fool me with your ivory tower education (if that part of your claims is even true).

Clete

 

[Clete]

Jonah did not want to preach the Gospel to the Ninevites and even after he did he wanted them to die. Jonah did not tell the Ninevites that God is known to repent of the evil He pronounces against a nation if they repent of their sin, but the Ninevites found that out for themselves in spite of Jonah's abbreviated message.

No prophecy failed.

Saying it doesn't make it so, marke.

 

[marke]

Saying it doesn't make it so, marke.

Likewise, just saying it aint so does not mean it isn't so.

 

[Clete]

Likewise, just saying it aint so does not mean it isn't so.

You're a fool!

I haven't merely made a claim, I have made an actual argument, which you have responded to by rationalizing away the text in order to conform God's word to your doctrine (i.e. your opinions).

The fact is that one thing was prophesied and something else happened. It wasn't Jonah's words that didn't come to pass, it was God's!

Jonah 3:​

3 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”​

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5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them.​

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10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.​

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Now, that's God's word. Believe it or don't.

 

[marke]

You're a fool!

I haven't merely made any claim. I have made an actual argument, which you have responded by rationalizing away the text in order to conform God's word to your doctrine (i.e. your opinions).

The fact is that one thing was prophesied and something else happened. It wasn't Jonah's words that didn't come to pass, it was God's!

Jonah 3:​

3 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”​

​

5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them.​

​

10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.​

​

Now, that's God's word. Believe it or don't.

You do not prove that God had not always intended to repent of the evil and you do not prove that Jonah was unaware of that fact. Did Jonah not admit he expected God to turn from the evil?
Jonah 4:2
And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No, it says literally 'before "chronos" (time). How can I get any better than what the Bible literally says?

The verse you reference says nothing of the sort, hence why I asked you if you quoted/cited the wrong verse:

2 Timothy 2:9:
"for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained."

Could you please provide the correct reference? Once you do so, I will reply to the rest of your comments with the correct passage inserted into the quote of your post.

 

[oatmeal]

Been watching a lot of Soteriology101 videos recently, in which Dr. Leighton Flowers consistently shows the errors of Calvinism, and promotes "Provisionism," which teaches that God has provided a way of salvation for mankind. (I definitely recommend listening to his shows on YT.)

But he pokes at the Open Theist camp (in love, of course) saying that he rejects our (as I am an Open Theist, too) view of God's omniscience, which is that God can know all things knowable, but also that God does not know the future. He obviously (because his show isn't really about Open Theism so much as it is Provisionism and attacking Calvinism,

I figured I'd start this thread to discuss what it means for God to be omniscient.

One way to start looking at the subject of God's omniscience is that God created all things. God created the heavens and the Earth in the beginning. Genesis 1:1.

As such, God is knowledgeable of all things that he created.

He made something out of nothing, God created.

A God smart enough to create things out of nothing is surely smart enough to keep track of all these things and to know what he created

 

[Lon]

The verse you reference says nothing of the sort, hence why I asked you if you quoted/cited the wrong verse:

Ah, I see but didn't you quote the correct one too? (This laptop really is problematic for typing )

2 Timothy 2:9:
"for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained."

Could you please provide the correct reference? Once you do so, I will reply to the rest of your comments with the correct passage inserted into the quote of your post.

2 Timothy 1:9

 

[Lon]

You do not prove that God had not always intended to repent of the evil and you do not prove that Jonah was unaware of that fact. Did Jonah not admit he expected God to turn from the evil?
Jonah 4:2
And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

Jeremiah 18:8

Spoiler

 

[Clete]

You do not prove that God had not always intended to repent of the evil and you do not prove that Jonah was unaware of that fact. Did Jonah not admit he expected God to turn from the evil?
Jonah 4:2
And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

I thought you wanted me to ignore you?

Last chance!

It is not my burden to prove that God intended to repent and I have never claimed that Jonah was unaware of God's tendency toward mercy. God certainly hoped that Nineveh would repent and may very well have expected it, and I'm quite sure Jonah knew God's character quite well. In fact, a great many prophecies in the bible are in fact warnings and they are not idle threats. Had Nineveh's reaction been different. they would indeed have been wiped out precisely on schedule. The point being that there is no need to prove what you're asking me to prove. Doing so would not only not be my burden but it would not advance my case because it is not relevent to my case. God meant what He said and then He changed His mind because the circumstances changed. That's what the text of Jonah says and that is what the principle taught in Jeremiah 18 teaches as well. My only point is, why not stick with what the text teaches? Why insist on saying that a prophecy that didn't come to pass, didn't fail? It did fail and God is glad that it failed, He wanted it to fail! It was Jonah who didn't want it to fail and got angry when it did. God wasn't upset by the failed prophecy! He was glad for it!

Your doctrine implies something quite different. Your doctrine would have us believe that God lied. That God was using some sort of reverse psychology or something where His real intent was kept secret both from His own prophet and from those who souls were at stake. There's no need for jumping through such hoops! There is no need to insist that the prophesy didn't fail unless your doctrine cannot survive the plain reading of the text. And that's the real point here! The point isn't about the book of Jonah so much as it is your desire to twist God's word in order to conform it to your doctrine rather than conforming your doctrine to the plain reading of text.

You act as if this is the only prophecy in the bible that didn't come to pass! There are several!

I beg you to watch this twenty minute video! I would have typed up a written version of the same information but I don't have time! I have to go to work. It's nothing but one bible quote after another showing several unfulfilled prophecies with a mindless Calvinist responding with nothing at all but his pagan doctrine....

 

[marke]

I thought you wanted me to ignore you?

Last chance!

It is not my burden to prove that God intended to repent and I have never claimed that Jonah was unaware of God's tendency toward mercy. God certainly hoped that Nineveh would repent and may very well have expected it, and I'm quite sure Jonah knew God's character quite well. In fact, a great many prophecies in the bible are in fact warnings and they are not idle threats. Had Nineveh's reaction been different. they would indeed have been wiped out precisely on schedule. The point being that there is no need to prove what you're asking me to prove. Doing so would not only not be my burden but it would not advance my case because it is not relevent to my case. God meant what He said and then He changed His mind because the circumstances changed. That's what the text of Jonah says and that is what the principle taught in Jeremiah 18 teaches as well. My only point is, why not stick with what the text teaches? Why insist on saying that a prophecy that didn't come to pass, didn't fail? It did fail and God is glad that it failed, He wanted it to fail! It was Jonah who didn't want it to fail and got angry when it did. God wasn't upset by the failed prophecy! He was glad for it!

Your doctrine implies something quite different. Your doctrine would have us believe that God lied. That God was using some sort of reverse psychology or something where His real intent was kept secret both from His own prophet and from those who souls were at stake. There's no need for jumping through such hoops! There is no need to insist that the prophesy didn't fail unless your doctrine cannot survive the plain reading of the text. And that's the real point here! The point isn't about the book of Jonah so much as it is your desire to twist God's word in order to conform it to your doctrine rather than conforming your doctrine to the plain reading of text.

You act as if this is the only prophecy in the bible that didn't come to pass! There are several!

I beg you to watch this twenty minute video! I would have typed up a written version of the same information but I don't have time! I have to go to work. It's nothing but one bible quote after another showing several unfulfilled prophecies with a mindless Calvinist responding with nothing at all but his pagan doctrine....

Prophecies which have not yet come to pass will come to pass because God does not lie.

 

[Lon]

Brief response:

True, Mr. Enyart, No prophecy fails, you are correct most believe that ( It isn't just Calvinists that believe that).

Of course Brian was silent about 'failed' prophecies. According to us, there weren't any.


"God in the Bible tells us it (Open Theist presentation of a failed prophecy) failed." -Enyart

-I'm completely unaware of God ever telling us a prophecy failed. I've literally never read those words in scripture. Romans 9:6

"(Classic theists believe) God declares the end from the beginning, which the Bible never says!" -Enyart
Isaiah 46:10

Enyart: First 'failed' Prophecy Joshua 3:10

Was Joshua unaware of Deuteronomy 7:22?

According to Deuteronomy 7:12; 8:1,and Deuteronomy 11:22,23 was this a 'conditional' or 'unconditional' promise we see in Joshua 3:10???

Will a man or woman well-read in scriptures agree with one who only knows Joshua 3:10?

When we come to Josua 3:10, Enyart calls this a 'prophecy' but is it? Is it actually a prophecy, or a mention of one AND the 'way' the Israelites will know God is keeping His end? Read it.

It isn't my intention to go over each and every one of these, just challenge people to both read and know more extensively, what is in their bibles as well as properly interpret passages.

I literally know of no failed prophecy, other than man failing to meet God's terms (no surprise on man's failure, I'd think).

 

[JudgeRightly]

(This laptop really is problematic for typing )

I use a phone and a Bluetooth keyboard. Don't complain about using a laptop.

2 Timothy 1:9

I shall include this in my next response.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Prophecies which have not yet come to pass will come to pass because God does not lie.

We're not talking about prophecies that have yet to come to pass.

We're talking about prophecies that have already failed, where there is no possibility of them ever being fulfilled.

 

[Clete]

Brief response:

True, Mr. Enyart, No prophecy fails, you are correct most believe that ( It isn't just Calvinists that believe that).

Of course Brian was silent about 'failed' prophecies. According to us, there weren't any.


"God in the Bible tells us it (Open Theist presentation of a failed prophecy) failed." -Enyart

-I'm completely unaware of God ever telling us a prophecy failed. I've literally never read those words in scripture. Romans 9:6

"(Classic theists believe) God declares the end from the beginning, which the Bible never says!" -Enyart
Isaiah 46:10

Enyart: First 'failed' Prophecy Joshua 3:10

Was Joshua unaware of Deuteronomy 7:22?

According to Deuteronomy 7:12; 8:1,and Deuteronomy 11:22,23 was this a 'conditional' or 'unconditional' promise we see in Joshua 3:10???

Will a man or woman well-read in scriptures agree with one who only knows Joshua 3:10?

When we come to Josua 3:10, Enyart calls this a 'prophecy' but is it? Is it actually a prophecy, or a mention of one AND the 'way' the Israelites will know God is keeping His end? Read it.

It isn't my intention to go over each and every one of these, just challenge people to both read and know more extensively, what is in their bibles as well as properly interpret passages.

I literally know of no failed prophecy, other than man failing to meet God's terms (no surprise on man's failure, I'd think).

Another of what simply MUST be an intentional lie from Lon!

He either didn't watch the video, which he claims to have done or he has intentionally mischaracterized / ignored its content which he seems to be quoting directly.

How is anyone taking this fool seriously? Enyart didn't make any claims in that video that he didn't explicitly prove!

The best rebuttal of this post of lies is for people to simply watch the video themselves! Bob quotes doesn't do much of anything other than read the bible straight to the camera!

 

[Clete]

Prophecies which have not yet come to pass will come to pass because God does not lie.

What?

Nineveh doesn't exist anymore! Jonah's prophecy cannot possibly come to pass!

John died before Christ's return as did everyone standing anywhere within 100,000 miles of where Jesus was standing when He made the explicit prediction that some standing there wouldn't die before His return.

God did not and now cannot remove all the enemies of Israel from before them as He said that He would do "without fail" but then later changed His mind and told them that He would not remove them all because Israel was being stupid.

And I've asked you this question before and you ignored it. I'm going to ask you this question again because I'm quite certain that while God was giving you your doctrine first hand, He failed somehow to teach you His own written word...

How does your doctrine deal with the following passage...

I Kings 22:19 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”​

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That passage explodes your doctrine in so many varied ways it's breath taking. Imagine having a doctrinal system that cannot survive the reading of five verses of scripture. Wow!

Clete

 

[OZOS]

Wow, Brian never addressed anything the Bible said. He just stomped his feet and held tightly to his false religion.

 

[Lon]

I use a phone and a Bluetooth keyboard. Don't complain about using a laptop.

Haven't used one so I believe you. This one has an odd way of changing text if I get too close to the mousepad so I think the sensitivity is the culprit. It often jumps several lines mangling other text and I can't always find the right key (keyboard class made old (and good but for this keyboard)habits this keyboard doesn't like). I can only imagine a smaller bluetooth at that point. "Really good job!" is the first thought because your posts are generally spot on. In Him -Lon

 

[Lon]

Wow, Brian never addressed anything the Bible said. He just stomped his feet and held tightly to his false religion.

I noticed that too, though I'd not say "anything Bible" it was less than what I expected.