Okay. I see.
Welcome to my ignore list.
There should be some sort of marker so that I don't have to waste a week discussing anything important with lunatics.
On the omniscience of God
- Thread starter JudgeRightly
- Start date
Welcome to my ignore list.
There should be some sort of marker so that I don't have to waste a week discussing anything important with lunatics.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Great I won't have to waste my time with your ignorance
It is impossible that God would not know the end from the beginning because He is the end and the beginning.
No, He isn't.
Yes, He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
OH! So, perhaps I've misunderstood something!
I was under the strong impression that all it took for a claim to be true was for me to show up on a web forum and make the single sentence proclamation.
Are you telling me that saying it doesn't make it so? Is this a universal truth or does this only apply to me? Am I the only one here that has to establish the claims he makes?
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It what way does the fact that God is the Alpha and the Omega have anything to do with what is being taught in Isaiah 46:10?
Clete
Forgive me if I have misunderstood the argument. Isaiah 46:10 also supports the fact that God predicts the end from the beginning because He dwells in the end and the beginning at the same time. Actually, God is not bound in time, which is a concept humans have a hard time comprehending. A day on earth can be similar to a thousand years in heaven while at the same time a thousand years on earth can be similar to a day in heaven. If heaven is bound by time that statement cannot possibly be true.
God "DECLARES the end from the beginning"
Is what the verse actually says.
Not "predicts." Not "is."
Declares.
Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ - Isaiah 46:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah46:9-10&version=NKJV
That's a huge difference.
God is not the author of confusion.
The confusion arises because the position is inherently illogical.
The verse you are attempting to reference says nothing of the sort.
In fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with time, except to say that God is patient and longsuffering, whereas a man could only wait a day, God can wait a thousand years, and powerful enough to accomplish in a day what man cannot do in a thousand years.
Remember, it says "is AS", not simply "is."
OZOS
Well-known member
Claiming that God is outside of time is like saying God is outside of movement, outside of communication, outside of wisdom, outside of knowledge, outside of thought, or outside of truth. God is not static, but dynamic. His character does not change, but God is not lifeless. He is active. God did not create time, but rather He created those things by which time is measured. Like movement, communication, wisdom, knowledge, and truth, time exists because God exists.
The Apostle John saw the future because God was able to take him there. John then recorded what he had seen after he saw it. That is more like time travel than it is merely a dream.
OZOS
Well-known member
"I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass".
God is a big God, and He doesn't adhere to Greek philosophy.
I don't believe God must order every event which happens in order to know what is going to happen. God doe not order every event to happen just the way it happens, but He does know what is going to happen in the future because he sees the future just as clearly as He sees the past.
OZOS
Well-known member
No one implied or said anything about God causing everything. God brings to pass His purpose and His plans in the midst of man's steps, and He knows how to do that, and what those plans will be. God knows the heart of man and God can make a cock crow.
Your theory on time travel is nonsensical. You simply have no idea what "time" is.
I know God causes all things to work out for good and brings some things to pass by direct intervention, but He does not make men's choices for them and therefore can only predict what will happen because he sees the end from the beginning.
OZOS
Well-known member
This was already explained to you by JudgeRightly, and it is sound doctrine, why did you ignore it?
Your view of God has Him to be powerless. To have a God that is "outside of time" limits Him, because He can never do something new.
That is not the God of the Bible.. The God of the Bible is a living, active, God, who is creative, and loving. Your skewed view takes all of that away from Him. You've not thought this through. Time is not a thing.
You will have to explain again why you think God is not the beginning and the end and does not know the end from the beginning. There could not have been hundreds of prophecies in the Bible being fulfilled thousands of years later if God had no ability to see the future.
No, it doesn't. That's your doctrine being read into the text. The fact is that it teaches the opposite of your doctrine, which we'll get to in a moment.
You did, however, use the correct term when you said that God "predicts the end from the beginning". Everything after that was just your doctrine and not what the passage teaches at all. Indeed, that doctrine isn't only absent from Isaiah 46:10, it's absent from the whole of scripture. The bible very simply does not teach anything so transparently self-contractictory as "He (God) dwells in the end and the beginning at the same time."
Don't minimize it. It isn't hard to comprehend, it is entirely impossible to comprehend because it is irrational in the extreme. God Himself could not comprehend it. It would be like trying to imagine a color without light or a sphere with sharp corners. It cannot be done because it is a contradiction.
The concept of timeless existence is, in fact, one of the best examples of a stolen concept fallacy that anyone could come up with. A stolen concept fallacy occurs when a concept is employed that is based on another concept that is being denied. A more obvious example is the statement, "All private property is theft." The statement "steals the concept" of theft by seeking to undermine the concept of private property which the concept of "theft" is logical predicated on. The statement is therefore self-contradictory and therefore false.
The idea of timeless existence steals the concept of existence because existence has no meaning outside of time. Time is not a thing, it is an idea. Time is a convention of language used to communicate information related to the duration and sequence of events. It cannot be existed outside of because the concept of existence implies the concept of duration and duration is all time is. Therefore, the idea of timeless existence steals the concept of existence because the denial of time (duration) renders existence meaningless. It is a self-contradiction and is therefore a self defeating falsehood.
It is a good thing that the bible does not teach it. If it did, it would, by itself, falsify the whole of Christianity and both Judaism and Islam as well for that matter.
Why? Why couldn't that be true? Because you said so?
It doesn't teach that a thousands years IS a single day or that a single day IS a thousand years. It simply likens one to the other. How would an infinite amount of time and a God who is outstandingly patient not be able to reasonably liken a thousand years to a single day when compared to the tiny time scales we mere mortals are used to dealing with? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
There is no passage of the bible that says anything similar to "God exists outside of time." In fact, the concept of timelessness is entirely foreign to the bible altogether, never mind in relation to God. The only reason you believe it is because Augustine of Hippo imported the concept into Catholicism from the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato) and it survived the Reformation fully intact because Luther, an Augustinian monk, broke from Rome, not Greece.
There's much more to say but I'm out of time! (See what I did there?)
Clete
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Jesus was on earth and in heaven at the same time (John 3:13) and John the apostle saw things happening thousands of years in the future. God is the beginning and the end. I don't know what others believe about God but I believe He is the end.No, it doesn't. That's your doctrine being read into the text. The fact is that it teaches the opposite of your doctrine, which we'll get to in a moment.
You did, however, use the correct term when you said that God "predicts the end from the beginning". Everything after that was just your doctrine and not what the passage teaches at all. Indeed, that doctrine isn't only absent from Isaiah 46:10, it's absent from the whole of scripture. The bible very simply does not teach anything so transparently self-contractictory as "He (God) dwells in the end and the beginning at the same time."
Don't minimize it. It isn't hard to comprehend, it is entirely impossible to comprehend because it is irrational in the extreme. God Himself could not comprehend it. It would be like trying to imagine a color without light or a sphere with sharp corners. It cannot be done because it is a contradiction.
The concept of timeless existence is, in fact, one of the best examples of a stolen concept fallacy that anyone could come up with. A stolen concept fallacy occurs when a concept is employed that is based on another concept that is being denied. A more obvious example is the statement, "All private property is theft." The statement "steals the concept" of theft by seeking to undermine the concept of private property which the concept of "theft" is logical predicated on. The statement is therefore self-contradictory and therefore false.
The idea of timeless existence steals the concept of existence because existence has no meaning outside of time. Time is not a thing, it is an idea. Time is a convention of language used to communicate information related to the duration and sequence of events. It cannot be existed outside of because the concept of existence implies the concept of duration and duration is all time is. Therefore, the idea of timeless existence steals the concept of existence because the denial of time (duration) renders existence meaningless. It is a self-contradiction and is therefore a self defeating falsehood.
It is a good thing that the bible does not teach it. If it did, it would, by itself, falsify the whole of Christianity and both Judaism and Islam as well for that matter.
Why? Why couldn't that be true? Because you said so?
It doesn't teach that a thousands years IS a single day or that a single day IS a thousand years. It simply likens one to the other. How would an infinite amount of time and a God who is outstandingly patient not be able to reasonably liken a thousand years to a single day when compared to the tiny time scales we mere mortals are used to dealing with? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
There is no passage of the bible that says anything similar to "God exists outside of time." In fact, the concept of timelessness is entirely foreign to the bible altogether, never mind in relation to God. The only reason you believe it is because Augustine of Hippo imported the concept into Catholicism from the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato) and it survived the Reformation fully intact because Luther, an Augustinian monk, broke from Rome, not Greece.
There's much more to say but I'm out of time! (See what I did there?
Clete
God has declared the end from the beginning. (Isaiah 46:10) God has chosen us in Him from the foundation of the world based upon His foreknowledge and the fact that He knew us before the world began.No, it doesn't. That's your doctrine being read into the text. The fact is that it teaches the opposite of your doctrine, which we'll get to in a moment.
You did, however, use the correct term when you said that God "predicts the end from the beginning". Everything after that was just your doctrine and not what the passage teaches at all. Indeed, that doctrine isn't only absent from Isaiah 46:10, it's absent from the whole of scripture. The bible very simply does not teach anything so transparently self-contractictory as "He (God) dwells in the end and the beginning at the same time."
Don't minimize it. It isn't hard to comprehend, it is entirely impossible to comprehend because it is irrational in the extreme. God Himself could not comprehend it. It would be like trying to imagine a color without light or a sphere with sharp corners. It cannot be done because it is a contradiction.
The concept of timeless existence is, in fact, one of the best examples of a stolen concept fallacy that anyone could come up with. A stolen concept fallacy occurs when a concept is employed that is based on another concept that is being denied. A more obvious example is the statement, "All private property is theft." The statement "steals the concept" of theft by seeking to undermine the concept of private property which the concept of "theft" is logical predicated on. The statement is therefore self-contradictory and therefore false.
The idea of timeless existence steals the concept of existence because existence has no meaning outside of time. Time is not a thing, it is an idea. Time is a convention of language used to communicate information related to the duration and sequence of events. It cannot be existed outside of because the concept of existence implies the concept of duration and duration is all time is. Therefore, the idea of timeless existence steals the concept of existence because the denial of time (duration) renders existence meaningless. It is a self-contradiction and is therefore a self defeating falsehood.
It is a good thing that the bible does not teach it. If it did, it would, by itself, falsify the whole of Christianity and both Judaism and Islam as well for that matter.
Why? Why couldn't that be true? Because you said so?
It doesn't teach that a thousands years IS a single day or that a single day IS a thousand years. It simply likens one to the other. How would an infinite amount of time and a God who is outstandingly patient not be able to reasonably liken a thousand years to a single day when compared to the tiny time scales we mere mortals are used to dealing with? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
There is no passage of the bible that says anything similar to "God exists outside of time." In fact, the concept of timelessness is entirely foreign to the bible altogether, never mind in relation to God. The only reason you believe it is because Augustine of Hippo imported the concept into Catholicism from the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato) and it survived the Reformation fully intact because Luther, an Augustinian monk, broke from Rome, not Greece.
There's much more to say but I'm out of time! (See what I did there?
Clete
OZOS
Well-known member
Believers are here and also seated in Christ at the same time (Eph 2:6). You have no point.