Thank you.
So? Did you understand the point that was being made?
Can you articulate it?
I wasn't talking about the "conjecture" claim, which isn't an appeal to incredulity anyways. It wasn't even conjecture, either, not that there's anything wrong with conjecture! I was an "if - then" argument.
I was talking about "I don't see..." claim, which includes the "conjecture" statement.
You said, quote: "It is wholly Open conjecture that I don't see supported by the scripture."
The problem is that I'm literally talking about the narrative presented by scripture!
And at the end of that "If" statement, I'm pointing out that ripping a few verses out of context to support the idea that God is omniscient is not supported by the context of those 9 chapters! NINE!
You're looking at four verses and claiming "it means God is omniscient" when I'm looking at the nine chapters those four verses are a part of and telling you "no, it's not about omniscience at all, it's about Israel being a rebellious nation, and how God is unable to change their hearts in spite of His capability!" Have you heard of missing the forest for the trees, Lon? You're missing the narrative for a few verses! Rather, you're IGNORING the narrative, for those verses!
Flattery isn't going to win you this argument.
WRONG.
It has nothing to do with men!!!
This is why I'm talking about the context of Isaiah 40-48!
Isaiah 41:21-29 IS NOT TALKING ABOUT MEN!
It's talking about IDOLS!
This is why I told you to go watch those two videos again, why I said that I'm starting to wonder if you're deliberately ignoring the context!
Here they are again.
WATCH THEM. TWICE MORE, if you have to! Watch them until you understand the context of the narrative that Isaiah is presenting!
Better yet!
Just go read Isaiah 40-48! Don't take my word or Chris's word for it. Take God's word for it!
Read. Try to get the big picture!
That doesn't mean it isn't a relational book, Lon. In other words, this was another argument from incredulity!
Saying it doesn't make it so, Lon!
God gave us His word SO THAT WE WOULD TALK TO HIM DIRECTLY!
Again, Isaiah 41:21-29 is God comparing Himself to false idols.
It's rhetorical because THEY DON'T EXIST!
NO! It was a trick question!
There would be absolutely NO reason to ask the question in the first place because false gods (such as idols) don't ontologically exist! They can't do the things God is asking because they don't exist to begin with!
God, on the other hand, does exist, and CAN see what happened in the past (because He was THERE!) and can tell the reason things happened the way they did, and He can see what's going on currently, and make predictions about the future! He can do that, BECAUSE HE EXISTS AND IS ALIVE AND INTERACTS WITH HIS CREATION!
Category error.
Knowing what someone is like is not the same as knowing a thought that has not been had yet, Lon.
Again, GOD CANNOT KNOW SOMETHING IF IT DOES NOT EXIST!
Peter existed, therefore God can know him, and HAD GOTTEN TO KNOW HIM AS A HUMAN BEING during His earthly ministry, just like He got to know Abraham from before He called him out of his father's house until He died!
In other words, PRESENT KNOWLEDGE!
That's an entirely different category than a thought that doesn't exist.
Neither can God!
I'll let Scripture speak for itself here:
“When you come to appear before Me,Who has required this from your hand,To trample My courts? Bring no more futile sacrifices;Incense is an abomination to Me.The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feastsMy soul hates;They are a trouble to Me,I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands,I will hide My eyes from you;Even though you make many prayers,I will not hear.Your hands are full of blood.
“When you come to appear before Me, Who has required this from your hand, To trample My courts? Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your...
www.biblegateway.com
Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened,That it cannot save;Nor His ear heavy,That it cannot hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God;And your sins have hidden His face from you,So that He will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood,And your fingers with iniquity;Your lips have spoken lies,Your tongue has muttered perversity.
Separated from God - Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, And your...
www.biblegateway.com
“Then the Babylonians came to her, into the bed of love,And they defiled her with their immorality;So she was defiled by them, and alienated herself from them. She revealed her harlotry and uncovered her nakedness.Then I alienated Myself from her,As I had alienated Myself from her sister.
“Then the Babylonians came to her, into the bed of love, And they defiled her with their immorality; So she was defiled by them, and alienated herself from them. She revealed her harlotry and uncovered her nakedness. Then I alienated Myself from her, As I had alienated Myself from her sister.
www.biblegateway.com
God is disgusted by sin!
If sacrifices can become wearisome to God, so much that He hides His eyes from those that perform them, and so much that he refuses to hear the calling of assemblies, how much more so will He turn away from the harm brought upon a child by an abuser?
Then you clearly don't know the God of the Bible!
You're actually defending the position that God actively watches child rape? Not only that He does so, but is REQUIRED to do so?!
CEASE YOUR BLASPHEMY!
What do you think I've been doing, Lon!
How much clearer do I have to get!?
Saying it doesn't make it so!
He's comparing Himself to idols!
JUST READ THE PASSAGE!
This shows you haven't read the chapters.
No, Lon, it is not.
Yes, God is describing how great He is. But that's not the point of what He's saying!
Again, he's not having a contest of attributes!
JUST READ THE PASSAGE! Get out your Bible, open it to Isaiah 40, and read to the end of chapter 48!
He's talking about how Israel has rebelled against Him, in spite of how great He is, because they can't get it through their thick skulls that the things that are happening are happening because He is bringing them about! It's about how wicked they have become, and so He will respond in judgement!
No, it simply is not, Lon. If you had read the passage, you would know it!
AMEN!
But this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
But you can't help but think it is, because of your paradigm that asserts "God is omni-____".
[ URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians 1%3A16-20&version=NIV' ]
Well there's you're problem. You're using the NIV.
Stop using that terrible translation, and the problem goes away, whatever it might be.
Who is the "you" in that passage?
Hint: It's not "man."
No, God is not somehow controlling our breathing.
The point being made is that without God, we wouldn't exist TO breathe, let alone live.
None of this has anything to do with Isaiah 40-48.
Go back and watch them. Again, if you have to.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Yes, it is, Lon!
You wanna know how I know?
BECAUSE I READ THE CHAPTERS!
It has nothing to do with "omniscience"!
Repeating your claim doesn't magically make it come true, and scripture disagrees with your claim anyways.
You have completely ripped the passage out of scripture and thrown the rest away just to defend your position.
Once again, you have completely missed the point Jesus was making, by ripping a verse out of its context, just so you can support your paradigm of beliefs.
John 8:58 is not about God being outside of time. That's not what He's saying.
He's intentionally angering the Jews, by claiming to have existed SINCE BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS!
That's DURATION! NOT TIMELESSNESS!
He was claiming to be God, not timeless!
And not only that, your claim completely ignores the context of the rest of scripture!
Now you're just lying.
There are exactly, and I mean EXACTLY ZERO verses that say God is infinite.
Lon, when you present a verse that you think shows your position, and I refute the claim that it shows your position, and then you jump to a different verse that you think shows your position, and refute that claim, and we go back and forth on this until you've exhausted all your verses, and then you point back to the first verse that you think upholds your position, as though we didn't just show all those verses to be saying something else, don't you think that's intellectually dishonest?
Because that's what you're doing here, Lon.
You're jumping around to different verses, trying to claim that they support your position, when in reality they have nothing to do with your position, and I'm showing you that they do not!
Might I suggest that you just have an incorrect definition of infinite?
How does the saying go?
"If everyone else is always the problem, maybe the problem isn't everyone else." - Hugo Bradford
Because I understand just fine what "infinite" means. You, however, do not.
Not if it's inherently wrong/false.
This is why I say you don't understand what infinite means.
Infinitely creative doesn't mean "no creative ability."
Creation implies something is brought into existence that did not previously exist.
Being infinitely creative means a being or Being can always bring new things into existence that have never existed before.
In other words, the exact opposite of "no new song."
Again, you don't understand what "infinite" means.
Supra.
I belief you stated the Bible does not say God was Infinite?
