I change not is the reason God gave for not destroying the sons and Jacob.
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On the omniscience of God
- Thread starter JudgeRightly
- Start date
glorydaz
Well-known member
And this next verse tells us something else... God's not changing here, that's for sure.I change not is the reason God gave for not destroying the sons and Jacob.Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.God is immutable wether you believe and accept it or not.
Malachi 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Derf
Well-known member
So? How does that affect what I wrote? God’s change, or lack thereof, in that verse is limited to what the verse is talking about. But we know God has a relationship with us, who have not existed forever, so that’s one kind of change the verse is NOT talking about.I change not is the reason God gave for not destroying the sons and Jacob.Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.God is immutable wether you believe and accept it or not.If Malachi had been written like this,For I am the Lord I do not change and because I do not change you sons of Jacob are not consumed.Therefore joins two related independent clauses. The independent clauses are I do not change/You sons of Jacob are not destroyed.
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Derf
Well-known member
This is a change
I either believe you or God. I believe God. Didn’t God say I change not ? Why is God not changing so hard to come to terms with after all it was God who said I change not ?
Derf is saying to believe God, too, LN. The difference is that he's telling you look at the context instead of just isolating 3 words out of a verse to found your doctrine on.
So do we.
Which doesn't tell the entire story. The context adds important information that you're intentionally ignoring.
You say God doesn't change at all, ignoring the context of what is said.
We say God doesn't change in certain ways, which the context of the verse allows for, but changes in others which are supported by scripture.
Who's the one having problems coming to terms with what God said, again?
Verse 6 has God saying "I change not" in His righteous character and His commitment to keep His promises.
The next verse has God saying if Israel returns to Him, He will return to them. That's a change.
So either God contradicted Himself, or "I change not" is not meant to be taken woodenly literally as LN is doing.
Malachi 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
An EXCELLENT verse which shows that God WOULD do something, but man's will prevents Him from doing so.
It doesn't show a lack of change, it shows a WILLINGNESS on God's part TO change.
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Derf
Well-known member
Here’s an anti-open theist article showing that God changes in some ways:
Does God change His mind? | GotQuestions.org
Does God change His mind? What does the Bible mean when it says God changed His mind?
www.gotquestions.org
You’re correct the added context you’re speaking of is the sons of Jacob weren’t destroyed because God does not change.I have no problem with what God said just as He said it.
Haha, that's funny, you think I'm referring to the rest of the verse! Hahahaha!
NO YOU IDIOT! I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ENTIRE CHAPTER AND EVEN THE ENTIRE REST OF THE BIBLE YOU DOLT!
Talk about missing the forest for the trees!!!
glorydaz
Well-known member
Wow. At least you aren't too strict on this forum. That's a plus.
Disrespect of TOL staff will not be tolerated. Rule 9.
All you have said is if you do not like a scripture contradict the scripture you do not like the meaning of with another scripture.You might want to look in a mirror if you want to see a real dolt.
This is bearing false witness, you liar!
I have NEVER said contradict scripture with another scripture.
SCRIPTURE IS CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF!
The only thing that is contradictory here is YOUR INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE with the REST of Scripture!
APOLOGISE for bearing false witness against me!
HYPOCRITE!
If you're hear just to take potshots at members of this forum, let alone staff, then just leave now.
I'm angry because I've spent the past how many pages of this thread making SOUND, LOGICAL ARGUMENTS, BACKED UP BY SCRIPTURE no less, and all he's done is simply repeat himself over and over again as if that defeats my (and Clete's) arguments!
It's EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING!
You are a flat out lying jerk! How much more context can be provided that the entire book of Jonah! And no, the source is not relevant. You are either lying or you're not! My opinion doesn't come into it. You are saying thing that no one who's mind works well enough to speak English could actaully believe are true. YOU KNOW what you are saying is false. That makes you a liar, whether I'm the only one willing to say it out loud or not.
And trust me, you have been well and truly written off. So far as I am concerned you are an enemy of the truth, an enemy of the gospel and an enemy of mine. You will receive nothing from me but that which you have demonstrated that you both deserve and desire. Gone is substantive two way discussion about anything important other than your own stupidity and dishonesty. You ignore what I say and repeat yourself. I can do that too. You'll get what you dish out spiced with the flavor of my pointing out your every lie.
Clete
CCoburn
New member
I believe that assigning anthropomorphic attributes/qualities to a primordial god (such as "knowing") can be a slippery slope, I suppose though that there is nothing wrong with a bit of speculation here and there. It may be extremely difficult to comprehend the nature pertaining to the mind of God, and mostly what I am able to do is observe its' works which would serve as a correlation to its' quality of being, which in my opinion, is perfect. It is true though however, that some may observe certain aspects of creation as 'imperfect' in which I presume they must be essential elements of a 'perfected' system of creation.
I suppose I do believe in a hierarchy, from God, and descending, call them archangels, angels (or intermediaries), humans, and further down where the quality of being does become more anthropomorphic from the initial source, but given the works, and for lack of a better term, I would presume that God is nearly omniscient, if not entirely omniscient.
I suppose I do believe in a hierarchy, from God, and descending, call them archangels, angels (or intermediaries), humans, and further down where the quality of being does become more anthropomorphic from the initial source, but given the works, and for lack of a better term, I would presume that God is nearly omniscient, if not entirely omniscient.
Derf
Well-known member
Hi CC. One thing that helps immensely is to use the "Quote" or "Reply" features so we know what you are referring to, and so those that you are replying to can get a notification about your response.
CCoburn
New member
Oh okay, it was just a general reply on "omniscience", but I'll keep that in mind next time - I get what you're saying with the notifications.
Are you a Christian? (Real question.)
If so, then I recommend that you start to think biblically rather than materialistically. Sure, there is plenty about God that we can learn from observing His creation but not nearly what is available to us through the Bible, which, if you're a Christian, you understand to be God's book.
Take the issue of omniscience, for example. The bible does not teach that God is omniscient. Aristotle taught that God is omniscient and Augustine imported the idea into Christian doctrine from the Classics but it isn't what God teaches us about Himself in His book. The bible teaches us that God knows what He wants to know of that information that is knowable. Of course, it doesn't teach that explicitly, so don't ask me for chapter and verse because there isn't one but it is clear from several passages that the word "omniscient" in the Classical sense, does not apply to the God of scripture.
Also, the concept of 'knowledge' is not an anthropomorphism. Virtually everything alive that isn't some sort of microbe has some form of knowledge. Even pure instinct is a form of knowledge. Not only that, but God could not have created the universe if He didn't have real actual knowledge, not only of what He wanted to create but of how to create it. All purposeful action is preceded by meaningful thought.