ECT Omnipresence of Jesus

[0scar]

Too right oscar, good reasoning. Another way to show Jesus cannot be omnipresent is by his words in John 20:17, "Jesus said to [Mary] “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father". So if Jesus was truly omnipresent then how had he not yet ascneded to the Father, by the flawed reasoning of others he should of been everywhere.

thanks

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus had omnipresence before emtying himself becoming in form of man.

Then how do you explain the fact that He was not everywhere before He came down to earth and put on a flesh and blood body?:

" And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

He came down from heaven before He became flesh. But if He was omnipresent before He became flesh then there would be no need to come down from heaven to earth because He was already there.

 

[0scar]

Then how do you explain the fact that He was not everywhere before He came down to earth and put on a flesh and blood body?:

" And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

He came down from heaven before He became flesh. But if He was omnipresent before He became flesh then there would be no need to come down from heaven to earth because He was already there.

You are right

My answer did not reflect what I always say, repeat and sustain. All along this forum I have say that God is not omnipresent. That rather than being omnipresent, God has omnipresence. In that context God the Son also has omnipresence.

My problem - the problem where you catch me well - is the use of "omnipresence". God has an unlimited presence, and Christ had an unlimited presence. Obviously I should quit using "omnipresence" in order to describe that unlimited presence.

My bad, and thank to correct me.

Here I go again: Christ had unlimited presence.

 

[NWL]

That rather than being omnipresent, God has omnipresence. In that context God the Son also has omnipresence.

Here I go again: Christ had unlimited presence.

I'm confused. Doesn't omnipresence and omnipresent mean the same thing, I've always though they were both derived from each other. Doesn't the phrase unlimited presence basically mean the same thing as well? :s

 

[0scar]

I'm confused. Doesn't omnipresence and omnipresent mean the same thing, I've always though they were both derived from each other. Doesn't the phrase unlimited presence basically mean the same thing as well? :s

Doesn't the phrase "unlimited presence" and the word "omnipresence" basically mean the same thing as well?

Now you understand why I made the mistake of using "omnipresence" when I was meaning "unlímited presence". It is easy to confuse one with the other and I made that mistake.

"Unlímited presence" is the kind of presence we learn of God having. Theres is nowhere we can hide from him. It is a presence with no limitations. It is here, there and over many places. Does not matter if I close the door, if I go into a cave, or if I switch of the light. It makes no difference if I go to the Moon or to the Planet Kripton. His presence is unlimited. And that is the kind of presence we read of God in the OT.

Unfortunatelly, in the XVII Century, some theologians came with the concept that such unlimited presence is an atribute of God, something God is, not something he has, but he is. And they made up the word "omnipresence" to describe it. It was a bad choice since "omni" means "all" and not "unlimited"

Today we have the same problem I had. When we refer to a unlimited presence we say "omnipresence". And according to the Scriptures God is not omnipresent, God do not have omnipresence; what describes the presence of God is an unlimited presence.

The presence of God is not limited by any boundary or conditions; but nowhere in the OT we read that God is in Hell (for example)

 

[0scar]

Christ (before incarnation) had an unlimited presence (not meaning that he is necesarelly everywhere).
Jesus (incarnated) has a limited presence as all humans do.

 

[NWL]

Doesn't the phrase "unlimited presence" and the word "omnipresence" basically mean the same thing as well?

Now you understand why I made the mistake of using "omnipresence" when I was meaning "unlímited presence". It is easy to confuse one with the other and I made that mistake.

"Unlímited presence" is the kind of presence we learn of God having. Theres is nowhere we can hide from him. It is a presence with no limitations. It is here, there and over many places. Does not matter if I close the door, if I go into a cave, or if I switch of the light. It makes no difference if I go to the Moon or to the Planet Kripton. His presence is unlimited. And that is the kind of presence we read of God in the OT.

Unfortunatelly, in the XVII Century, some theologians came with the concept that such unlimited presence is an atribute of God, something God is, not something he has, but he is. And they made up the word "omnipresence" to describe it. It was a bad choice since "omni" means "all" and not "unlimited"

Today we have the same problem I had. When we refer to a unlimited presence we say "omnipresence". And according to the Scriptures God is not omnipresent, God do not have omnipresence; what describes the presence of God is an unlimited presence.

The presence of God is not limited by any boundary or conditions; but nowhere in the OT we read that God is in Hell (for example)

Oh I get what your trying to express, I too believe the same thing, that neither God or Jesus are Omnipresent, and yes I too believe that YHWH is allseeing, and his presence can be felt everywhere, even on supermans home planet, this is summed up nicely for us in 2 Chron 16:9 "For, as regards Jehovah, his eyes are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him."

However I would like to see where you get your reasoning that Jesus was allseeing (has unlimted precense) the same as the Father.

 

[0scar]

However I would like to see where you get your reasoning that Jesus was allseeing (has unlimted precense) the same as the Father.

probably you mean Christ. probably you want I tell you why I believe that Christ before incarnation has unlimited presence. for Jesus didnt have unlimited presence.

did christ has unlimited presence before incarnation? good question. unfortunatelly I fall in the same reasoning of my opositor brothers: Christ is God, God has unlimited presence, Christ has unlimited presence. unfortunatelly that is all I can offer.

 

[NWL]

probably you mean Christ. probably you want I tell you why I believe that Christ before incarnation has unlimited presence. for Jesus didnt have unlimited presence.

did christ has unlimited presence before incarnation? good question. unfortunatelly I fall in the same reasoning of my opositor brothers: Christ is God, God has unlimited presence, Christ has unlimited presence. unfortunatelly that is all I can offer.

No worries, it is a logical thing to conclude if one stating it believes Jesus is God, thanks for admitting it.

I would've concluded the same thing in your shoes

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thanks to the both of you for your insights.

They are appreciated.

 

[intojoy]

You mean the ability to see throw solid objects? or the ability to fly across the universe?



Omnipresence is being everywhere. Every time christians - also in this forum - try to demostrate Jesus omnipresence they try to demostrate that he is everywhere. Every time christians - also in this forum - try to demostrate that Jesus is everywhere, they claim he is omnipresent.



om·ni·pres·ent

adjective - present everywhere at the same time: the omnipresent God.

Origin: 1600–10; < Medieval Latin omnipraesent- (stem of omnipraesēns ), equivalent to Latin omni- omni- + praesent- present1



If Jesus is in Heaven, not on earth and not on Hades / Hell; he is not everywhere.

He is there in hades He is there in heaven. So what?

 

[0scar]

He is there in hades He is there in heaven. So what?

If Jesus have always been in Heaven, then he didt come dow, didnt rose back and will not return.
If Jesus have always been in Hades he didt go there for 3 days.

Another way to show Jesus cannot be omnipresent is by his words in John 20:17, "Jesus said to [Mary] “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father". So if Jesus was truly omnipresent then how had he not yet ascneded to the Father, by the flawed reasoning of others he should of been everywhere.

Then how do you explain the fact that He was not everywhere before He came down to earth and put on a flesh and blood body?:

" And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).
He came down from heaven before He became flesh. But if He was omnipresent before He became flesh then there would be no need to come down from heaven to earth because He was already there.

1 Peter 3:18-20
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

 

[intojoy]

If Jesus have always been in Heaven, then he didt come dow, didnt rose back and will not return.

If Jesus have always been in Hades he didt go there for 3 days.



Another way to show Jesus cannot be omnipresent is by his words in John 20:17, "Jesus said to [Mary] “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father". So if Jesus was truly omnipresent then how had he not yet ascneded to the Father, by the flawed reasoning of others he should of been everywhere.



Then how do you explain the fact that He was not everywhere before He came down to earth and put on a flesh and blood body?:



How do you know He wasn't?


And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).

He came down from heaven before He became flesh.


But if He was omnipresent before He became flesh then there would be no need to come down from heaven to earth because He was already there.



This is why you are not of the faith IMO. You do not understand the scriptural basis for propitiating Adam's sin.

 

[0scar]

This is why you are not of the faith IMO. You do not understand the scriptural basis for propitiating Adam's sin.

I am a Merchant Mariner Captain, and all marine activities are regulated by the IMO (International Maritime Organization) of th UN (United Nations). If there is other IMO I dont know it.

The real and truth faith, the only faith is contain in the Bible. The Bible declares that Jesus is not omnipresent. Period.

 

[intojoy]

I am a Merchant Mariner Captain, and all marine activities are regulated by the IMO (International Maritime Organization) of th UN (United Nations). If there is other IMO I dont know it.



The real and truth faith, the only faith is contain in the Bible. The Bible declares that Jesus is not omnipresent. Period.

IMO - in my opinion
You don't know The Lord.

Judging by your comments.

 

[0scar]

You don't know The Lord.

Judging by your comments.

I know my Lord, not yours. I know Jesus Christ, Son of God, who emptyed himself of all his omnipresence becoming man and dieing in the cross. For he was at the cross paying for my sins. He was not any other place but at the cross. And after resurrection my Lord is sit at the right had of the Fathe, right there, at His right hand and no other place. That is MY Lord, not yours.

 

[eameece]

No you didnt quote. You quoted that Jesus being in Heaven came to Earth. Interpreting that Jesus was on Earth after coming, and that he remained at heaven to were he returned; is a twisted interpretation of a sick logic.

You have an interpretation and I have one; that's all anyone has.

 

[0scar]

You have an interpretation and I have one; that's all anyone has.

It is not an interpretation; it is the only understanding of the text:

In the Gospels there is not one single sign of Jesus being omnipresent.
In the Gospels Jesus always is in a specific place, clearly identified and no where else.
In the Gospels if Jesus wants to be somewhere else, he travel.
In the Gospels if the disciples dont know where he is, they look for him until found him.
In the Gospels, if the jew want to see Jesus they go where he is.
In the Gospels, if the jew want to arrest Jesus, they go after him where he is.
In the Gospels Jesus is crucified and he was at the cross.
In the Gospels, Jesus died and is carried into the sepulcre.
In the Gospels Jesus resurrect and the women found empty the sepulcre where he was
In the Gospels Jesus rose to Heaven from Earth
In the Gospels Jesus promessed to return to Earth from Heaven.

It is not a twisted personal interpretation.
A twisted personal interpretation is to insist in his omnipresence.

 

[0scar]

John 11:20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary stayed at home. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.

Martha clearly say that Jesus was not there. In fact, John say Jesus was coming.
Jesus was not present there. Jesus is not present everywhere. Jesus is not omnipresent.

 

[0scar]

I will go away and return to My place Until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me. (Hosea 5:15 NASB)

"go away and return to my place"
This is a clear sing of not being present everywhere; of not being omnipresent.