Objective Morality

csuguy

Well-known member
Making rocket science out of objective morality is exactly why you just shouldn't debate it with atheists. It's their aim to make a conundrum of the matter, not to come to an objective conclusion.

Morality is important for everyone: Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. Furthermore, it is an extremely important matter for Christians to be able to be able to present such arguments to those outside the faith - for we are called to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey God's commands. But if we don't have a good grasp on the matter, then we can't really do this.

If you require someone to accept the faith before you can teach them the faith - you are doing something wrong. You must study the teachings of the faith so that you can present them knowledgeably to those not of the faith. The argument I present here is a good opener for such discussions, as most people don't think morality is objective now a days; it begins to break down their pre-conceptions against Christianity. Of course, in of itself it is insufficient, you need to be prepared to address a wide array of issues.

Morals are abstract- they are in God's will and codified in the minds of every person. You don't 'learn' them, you 'relearn' them- as you have been depraved of it's full knowledge.
The Scriptures state the beginning of wisdom starts with God, but what they ultimately teach is a reformation of wisdom which became corrupted.

To the contrary, scriptures teach us these things. It is not something we already innately know:

Romans 7:7 [ The Law and Sin ] What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”​

Sounds like you've been reading too much Plato ;)
 

csuguy

Well-known member
What is Objective Morality?" Objective Morality is a trace of character which is developed according to the culture under which one has been raised at from birth. It develops naturally and usually predisposes a man or woman into being amoral. The only morality being what is akin to the State. Hence, objective morality.

You need to develop your position a bit more before it can be meaningfully discussed. Why do you state that "the only morality being what is akin to the State."? And why do you conclude this is objective? And if this "morality" leads people to being amoral, then wouldn't you say this approach isn't very good?

A very good example in the NT is the case of Paul who grew up amoral due to his Hellenistic culture as he was the son of a well-to-do Hellenistic couple from the city of Tarsus in Cilicia. When he entered into contact with Jewish morality, he saw no objectivity. So, an aversion to it remained to the end. He could never conciliate his being amoral to the subjective morality of Israel.

A bold, but baseless accusation.
 

Clete

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I've made no such error - my answer applies whether speaking of the concept of a relationship or whether you are speaking of a specific relationship. A relationship has objective and subjective components to it. It is true that no two people are exactly the same, but neither are people so drastically different that we can't speak of people generically. Of course, the more specific knowledge you have of the people in question, and the more specific the scenario you construct, the more detailed and accurate you can make your analysis. Look at professional personality tests and such that are derived from the field of psychology - they are able to categorize you into one of a fairly limited number of personalities. What's more, those personality profiles are pretty detailed and accurate.
How can you not see that you are talking in generalities?

Take your example of the personality profiles, which I agree can be very useful and surprisingly accurate so far as they go. But the "so far as the go" phrase is the most important five words in that sentence. Take the Briggs Myers set of personalities. There are sixteen different personality profiles, any one of which interacts with the other fifteen differently. Not only that but most (not all) people have a secondary personality profile because many end up falling somewhere in the middle between thinker and feeler or introvert and extrovert, or both, etc. So, in reality, there are dozens of different profiles and none of them - NONE - are entirely accurate and only provide a very generalized understanding of any particluar person.

Now, don't misunderstand me. I am not knocking personality profiles. I think they're amazing and extremely useful. My only point here is that their very nature argues against rather than in favor of your thesis. Your thesis is about an OBJECTIVE standard for morality. How on Earth can relationships be considered an objective standard when relationships are governed by each person's personality, of which there are AT LEAST sixteen different personality types all of which interact differently with each other? At the very least, you'd have to acknowledge that under such a system of morality, that what was wrong from within the context of one relationship may be perfectly fine in another. That's called situational ethics and it is therefore NOT objective, by definition.

A valid and important issue to discuss, though I think not quite as perplexing as you make it out to be. To evaluate such a scenario we need to dive a bit deeper, beyond the OP, and into the matter of competing relations. It would be nice if everyone could just get along, but reality isn't so nice. Inevitably there will be scenarios like this where you are presented with a choice of helping one person/group at the expense of another. A compelling case might be that someone is holding a loved one hostage, and will kill them unless you harm/kill who they tell you too. Even if the moral option is obvious, making that choice can be very emotional and difficult.
My point is exactly that if your standard was objective, you wouldn't have to "dive a bit deeper".

The fact is, assault is wrong. The only case in which punching someone in the face wouldn't be immoral is if you were somehow protecting them from some greater harm, in which case, it wouldn't be assault in the first place.

Let us consider the matter of favoritism and how this affects relations. Let us say you love person X and person Y, but you love person X more. As such, when person X conflicts with person Y, you side with person X regardless of the nature of the conflict and regardless of who is at fault. Person X will likely enjoy this favoritism, especially if you have say in how the conflict is resolved - as with a judge. On the other hand, your relationship with person Y will be strained. Once it becomes clear to person Y where your loyalties lie, your relationship will be fundamentally changed - at least when it comes to person X. You will no longer be viewed by person Y as someone they can trust regarding person X. What's more, the acts that person X committed against person Y will now be associated with you as well, since you sided with person X over those matters.
Playing favorites in matters of morality would be unjust. It would be unjust precisely because it would not be objective.

Am I missing something here? It seems like you just argued against your own position. :confused:

Let us imagine the son of land owner in the early Americas. The family owns many slaves. Let us suppose this son actually likes some of the family slaves. However, his family has ingrained into him the idea that slavery, and all the cruel treatment that went along with it in the early Americas, was somehow justified. In fact, he even believes its for their own good in the end. As such, whenever a slave is randomly beaten, raped, murdered etc. by the family, the son sides with the family. How do you imagine the family slaves regard this son? He might not engage in these activities himself, but his endorsement for them nevertheless color the slaves view of the boy - he is one of them. He may say he cares, but when you get down to it he isn't someone the slaves can trust anymore than the ones maiming and murdering them.

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

What, then, can we say about such favoritism with regards morality? Clearly it is immoral, for it necessarily creates a divide between a two persons/groups. This subjective divide that we create for ourselves in our mind is made manifest through our actions where conflict arises between the two sides. Once this favoritism is objectively observed by the two sides, and especially the side not favored, this will create a divide between you and the unfavored party.

Luke 12:51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. 52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Based on the above verses, would your standard declare Jesus to be immoral?

Removing favoritism from the equation then, how then are we to address conflicts between two persons or groups when pulled into the matter? We start by listening to each side, and objectively investigating the conflict. We treat each side equally, judging them not by who they are but by their actions and reasoning with regards the conflict. We render judgment that is fair; if one side is clearly at fault for something then they are held accountable. If both sides have some merit, then you acknowledge both. In the end, you want to render an objective verdict that aims to resolve the conflict based upon the evidence. Only through such an objective and even-handed approach can you meaningfully resolve such conflict in a moral manner.
Objective by what standard?

"If one side is clearly at fault for something" - by what standard?

In what way does the relationship provide the standard? If one relationship is harmed and another enhanced, which do you pick to take precedence over the other and for what reason?

If you could answer that question, the answer will be your standard (or at least closer to it), not the relationships.

Applying all this back to your scenario: the clear favoritism towards the white supremacist's is the first immoral factor. You've decided they are more important than some stranger - creating a divide between you and the stranger in your own mind. You then attacked said stranger, making manifest your disregard for this stranger's well-being. As such, we can objectively regard the actions of the attacker in this scenario as immoral.
By what standard do you decide that white supremacy is immoral? (Not that I'm suggesting that it isn't, of course.)
By what standard do you decide that attacking a stranger is immoral? You have no relationship with a stranger, by definition.

First off, let me point out that being objective isn't a matter of knowing absolutely that something is a certain way. Being objective is a matter of looking at the evidence and drawing reasonable conclusions. You can simultaneously be wrong and objective just as you can reach correct conclusions subjectively.
I agree with this. It would not be possible to be objectively right if it were impossible to be at least theoretically objectively wrong. Otherwise, the proposition would be unfalsifiable and therefore meaningless.

Second off, as I noted earlier, while everyone is unique, we aren't all that different. Put people in similar scenarios and you will see a similar set of reactions. No, they won't behave exactly the same, but there is a rational range of behavior that we can expect to see. In fact, this is what enables us to empathize with others, and how Hollywood can produce emotional scenes that cause us to feel emotional - whether that be anger, sadness, love, etc.
All the wiggle room in this comment is what makes your proposed standard anything but objective.

In fact, it is this wiggle room that makes errors in judgment possible and what makes an objective standard necessary in the first place.


You've got your work cut out for you before you can present this as an objective argument for morality. Assume you are discussing this with a non-believer and you can't quote scripture to defend a position: what do you mean by "that which leads to life?" Whose life? My life? Your life? Every life? While I may value my life, why is it "good" to preserve it? And if I accept that preserving my life is what is "good" - then does that justify me doing anything and everything to that end? Even taking other people's lives?

While from a scriptural standpoint I agree with the idea that good actions lead to eternal life, I would never define good in terms of eternal life. Nor would I define evil in terms of death; Christ died after all. These are rewards/punishments from God based upon judgment of the culmination of our lives, not innate qualities of good/bad actions. This then re frames the question to: why does God reward these actions with life and these other actions with death? Answering this question is the real challenge.
I absolutely love that you said this!

In my first response to your opening post, I said, "that which is proper to life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil."

That is a verbatim quote of Ayn Rand. Perhaps you're familiar with her work. Objectivism is the name of her philosophy and it is the most Christian thing any atheist ever wrote. She wrote tens of thousands of words on the subject of ethics and wrote whole novels to show how her philosophy would work, the most prominent of which is Atlas Shrugged, which I've read a half dozen times and she not only doesn't quote scripture, she hated Christianity (for all the wrong reasons, by the way).

This brings up an important point and it is the reason I love the fact that you made this point. Truth is objective and reason is the act of conforming one's mind to the truth. Therefore if the bible is true then sound reason should lead you to basically the same ethics that the bible teaches. It just so happens that it does exactly that, which Rand demonstrates so amazingly in her voluminous and brilliant (while still wicked) books and essays. She does make several errors, the two most prominent being her rejection of the existence of God and, in regards to Christianity (Catholicism in particular), her belief that the liberal things Christians do and teach are consistent with the bible. Take out those two errors (which are major league whoppers, by the way), her philosophy is almost entirely consistent with biblical teaching and all without having to quote one verse of scripture from any religion.

Thanks, glad you're enjoying it. I've always found morality to be a very engaging subject :)
You should check out this thread...

Is God Moral?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Clete

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Ah yes, AMR's brilliant rebuttal of the Euthyphro Dilemma by simply declaring that it doesn't exist.

This guy was either the worst theology professor in the history of Calvinism or he was never one at all.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Ah yes, AMR's brilliant rebuttal of the Euthyphro Dilemma by simply declaring that it doesn't exist.

This guy was either the worst theology professor in the history of Calvinism or he was never one at all.

faced with a gordian knot, it's best to fire up the old chainsaw and make short work of it :)
 

Clete

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faced with a gordian knot, it's best to fire up the old chainsaw and make short work of it :)

That would be an improvement over what AMR does. At least getting the chainsaw out acknowledges that the problem exists. As it is, he's less than Monty Python's Black Knight declaring his lack of limbs to be a mere flesh wound. At least the Black Knight drew a sword...



My favorite part is that this goof draws attention to something this ridiculous after a whole year has passed and everyone has forgotten about it! If this guy had been typical of theologians 400 years ago, Calvinism would have faded into obscurity long ago and none of us would have ever heard of it.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
How can you not see that you are talking in generalities?

Do you have a problem with abstract reasoning? It's only natural that when speaking of the basis for morality that we be speaking in abstract, general terms - you are trying to account for any number of different scenarios all at once. If you didn't speak in general terms, your moral philosophy would be extremely limited.

Take your example of the personality profiles, which I agree can be very useful and surprisingly accurate so far as they go. But the "so far as the go" phrase is the most important five words in that sentence. Take the Briggs Myers set of personalities. There are sixteen different personality profiles, any one of which interacts with the other fifteen differently. Not only that but most (not all) people have a secondary personality profile because many end up falling somewhere in the middle between thinker and feeler or introvert and extrovert, or both, etc. So, in reality, there are dozens of different profiles and none of them - NONE - are entirely accurate and only provide a very generalized understanding of any particluar person.

Yes altogether there are probably a few dozen distinct personality types when you get down to it - but, quite frankly, that's not that much diversity. And when you consider that the secondary profiles are merely specializations on top of the main profiles - you find they don't differ much from the primary 16 profiles, and that is small number indeed. You can say these don't exactly capture anyone - but they are nonetheless accurate enough for us to speak objectively about people in a general sense. What's more, even with these distinct profiles 16 main profiles, there are commonalities between them. There are four main traits that are evaluated, where each trait has two values. A difference of one trait = a distinct personality type. And then you can get into the theory of shadow functions, and there you find that the opposite traits are still part of the person, they are just recessive in nature - less developed and less expressed, but still very much present.

So, no, people aren't so unique that we can't understand how they think, feel, and reason - even at an abstract/general level.

Now, don't misunderstand me. I am not knocking personality profiles. I think they're amazing and extremely useful. My only point here is that their very nature argues against rather than in favor of your thesis. Your thesis is about an OBJECTIVE standard for morality. How on Earth can relationships be considered an objective standard when relationships are governed by each person's personality, of which there are AT LEAST sixteen different personality types all of which interact differently with each other? At the very least, you'd have to acknowledge that under such a system of morality, that what was wrong from within the context of one relationship may be perfectly fine in another. That's called situational ethics and it is therefore NOT objective, by definition.

First off, sixteen personality types is a very finite number. Additionally, those personality types aren't so unique in their own right - they share traits with one another. Each personality shares each of its individual traits with 14 other personalities (only one personality being the exact opposite), and many of those personalities share more than one trait. What is more, there are commonalities with people beyond those four traits that these personality types are categorized on. People simply aren't all that different. And even if there were some very different personalities that we needed to account for - if we can acknowledge them and factor them into our analysis, then they pose no problem for our objective analysis.

Second off, yes you do need to factor in the specifics of a situation to be able to fully analyze it. I've stated many times that the more specific information you have the more accurate your analysis can be. But even if you don't know everything you can still objectively analyze what you do know; including asking what kinds of additional information would effect your moral judgement of the situation.

My point is exactly that if your standard was objective, you wouldn't have to "dive a bit deeper".

You seem to think that because some analysis is required that therefore it isn't objective... You are simply wrong here. Rather, if you didn't engage in any analysis of the situation to understand it then you would be engaging in subjective judgement. To arrive at an objective understanding of a situation you must necessarily evaluate the evidence logically.

The fact is, assault is wrong. The only case in which punching someone in the face wouldn't be immoral is if you were somehow protecting them from some greater harm, in which case, it wouldn't be assault in the first place.

While I would tend to agree with you - simply stating that it is so won't convince someone who doesn't already agree. The challenge is to build up an objective argument for why such a thing is wrong.


Playing favorites in matters of morality would be unjust. It would be unjust precisely because it would not be objective.

Am I missing something here? It seems like you just argued against your own position. :confused:

I'm not sure why you would think that - I built up an objective argument, on top of my original, for why favoritism is wrong. This is how you objectively develop a moral system.

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Indeed, but we also commit sins in ignorance. Leviticus 5 addresses many such cases. Once you become aware of your sin, or if you suspect that you have sinned and feel guilty, then you are responsible for what you have done. However, in the interim, by the grace of God, you are not held responsible. Hence Jesus' prayer for his persecutors:

Luke 23:33-34 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.​

Yet the fact that they didn't understand they were doing wrong does not change the fact that they were doing wrong. We simply don't hold people responsible for doing wrong the same way as someone who does wrong knowingly. And rightfully so - for the latter does unjustified harm to you knowingly, disregarding your well-being.

Luke 12:51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. 52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Based on the above verses, would your standard declare Jesus to be immoral?

Of course not. To understand why, however, we must understand the difference between the division caused by favoritism and the division that Christ speaks of; for they are distinct. To draw off of our earlier example, let us assume that you were born into white supremacy - you were taught from birth that favoritism for whites is the good and natural way of things, and everyone else gets what is coming to them. Now imagine someone convinces you of the completely wrong and sinful nature of white supremacy. A division will now occur between you and the white supremacists - even your own mother and father. For you see the error of their ways. If you refuse to participate in their delusion - and especially if you make known that you regard their ways as erroneous, then you are no longer one of them.

So you can see the difference between the two scenarios: in the earlier case the division is one in which you decide that one group is to favored over others, disregarding the well-being of others. In the second case, you realize that such is erroneous. A division is formed between you and those who believe that way since you reject their beliefs and sinful actions, and you make this dissent known. Perhaps you even try to convince others of the group that they are wrong. But, as we know, the group as whole won't accept this - and you will be shunned and/or persecuted as a result.

Such is the division that Christ speaks of - he has called us out from the sinful, worldly life that we find ourselves in. Not because the people of the world are to be hated or to be loved less, but because their ways are sinful. It is the world that has created divisions between the worth of people and who harm one another. You are being called out of all that and called to love even those that hate and persecute you. But this is contrary to the ways of the world, and so the world will hate you. God, on the other hand, desires for all to come to know the truth and be saved.

So division arises by recognizing the error of our ways - a division between us and those who share in that error. This is not to be considered sinful, for we seek what is true and good, and would have those still in error join us and repair the relations that were harmed as a result of the error. We would promote reconciliation between the divided parties - and we are rejected by those who would hold onto these divisions. Thus we aren't really creating any divisions in of ourselves - rather it is others who form divisions against us.

Objective by what standard?

"If one side is clearly at fault for something" - by what standard?

In what way does the relationship provide the standard? If one relationship is harmed and another enhanced, which do you pick to take precedence over the other and for what reason?

If you could answer that question, the answer will be your standard (or at least closer to it), not the relationships.

Being objective means that we look at the evidence and draw reasonable conclusions from it. There are no different standards for what it means to be objective. Whether someone is clearly at fault for something is based upon objective analysis of the evidence. Example: video footage of a man stealing followed by the man turning himself in and confessing to the crime. All else equal, it is objective to consider that this man did the deed.

I've already gone through and talked about judging cases where one relationship is harmed and another benefited, so I will not bother repeating all of that here. Go back and re-read the last post.

By what standard do you decide that white supremacy is immoral? (Not that I'm suggesting that it isn't, of course.)

Again, go back and re-read the last post. The short answer: favoritism.

By what standard do you decide that attacking a stranger is immoral? You have no relationship with a stranger, by definition.

That is not entirely true. You don't know each other of course, but you can rightfully expect them to treat you morally and to abide the laws. If we couldn't expect even this, then society couldn't function save in very small units. So while you may not know one another, you are expected to respect one another. That is your relationship. And when you attack them out of the blue, you have degraded that relationship from an amiable one to a hostile one. You are no longer someone that that man, or anyone else for that matter, can trust to pass-by on the street while they carry out their business - you are someone the cops need to lock up lest you randomly attack more citizens.

I agree with this. It would not be possible to be objectively right if it were impossible to be at least theoretically objectively wrong. Otherwise, the proposition would be unfalsifiable and therefore meaningless.


All the wiggle room in this comment is what makes your proposed standard anything but objective.

In fact, it is this wiggle room that makes errors in judgment possible and what makes an objective standard necessary in the first place.

First off, you contradict yourself. You just got through agreeing that it is possible to be both objective and wrong, and then you go on to to criticize my approach to morality because you might make an error and conclude that that's why you need an objective standard?!

Second off, as I pointed out earlier, abstract logic is perfectly good and necessary for discussing morality - especially the base principles and concepts. You are attempting to address any number of distinct situations - so there must be "wiggle room" for addressing important factors that differ between these scenarios. If you attempt to discuss morality from overly specific scenarios, then you will fail to produce a framework that can be generally applied to the different situations that we find ourselves in.

I absolutely love that you said this!

In my first response to your opening post, I said, "that which is proper to life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil."

That is a verbatim quote of Ayn Rand. Perhaps you're familiar with her work. Objectivism is the name of her philosophy and it is the most Christian thing any atheist ever wrote. She wrote tens of thousands of words on the subject of ethics and wrote whole novels to show how her philosophy would work, the most prominent of which is Atlas Shrugged, which I've read a half dozen times and she not only doesn't quote scripture, she hated Christianity (for all the wrong reasons, by the way)This brings up an important point and it is the reason I love the fact that you made this point. Truth is objective and reason is the act of conforming one's mind to the truth. Therefore if the bible is true then sound reason should lead you to basically the same ethics that the bible teaches. It just so happens that it does exactly that, which Rand demonstrates so amazingly in her voluminous and brilliant (while still wicked) books and essays. She does make several errors, the two most prominent being her rejection of the existence of God and, in regards to Christianity (Catholicism in particular), her belief that the liberal things Christians do and teach are consistent with the bible. Take out those two errors (which are major league whoppers, by the way), her philosophy is almost entirely consistent with biblical teaching and all without having to quote one verse of scripture from any religion.

Can't say I'm terribly familiar with Ayn Rand. I've heard her name thrown around occasionally. Doing a quick lookup of her moral philosophy, it doesn't strike me as the least bit Christian. It sounds like she tried to take the old "greed is good" non-sense and propose that as morality. That could be an interesting thread in its own right, however: how does Ayn Rand's Objectivism compare to Christian Morality?


Ephesians 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​
 

Clete

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Do you have a problem with abstract reasoning? It's only natural that when speaking of the basis for morality that we be speaking in abstract, general terms - you are trying to account for any number of different scenarios all at once. If you didn't speak in general terms, your moral philosophy would be extremely limited.



Yes altogether there are probably a few dozen distinct personality types when you get down to it - but, quite frankly, that's not that much diversity. And when you consider that the secondary profiles are merely specializations on top of the main profiles - you find they don't differ much from the primary 16 profiles, and that is small number indeed. You can say these don't exactly capture anyone - but they are nonetheless accurate enough for us to speak objectively about people in a general sense. What's more, even with these distinct profiles 16 main profiles, there are commonalities between them. There are four main traits that are evaluated, where each trait has two values. A difference of one trait = a distinct personality type. And then you can get into the theory of shadow functions, and there you find that the opposite traits are still part of the person, they are just recessive in nature - less developed and less expressed, but still very much present.

So, no, people aren't so unique that we can't understand how they think, feel, and reason - even at an abstract/general level.



First off, sixteen personality types is a very finite number. Additionally, those personality types aren't so unique in their own right - they share traits with one another. Each personality shares each of its individual traits with 14 other personalities (only one personality being the exact opposite), and many of those personalities share more than one trait. What is more, there are commonalities with people beyond those four traits that these personality types are categorized on. People simply aren't all that different. And even if there were some very different personalities that we needed to account for - if we can acknowledge them and factor them into our analysis, then they pose no problem for our objective analysis.

Second off, yes you do need to factor in the specifics of a situation to be able to fully analyze it. I've stated many times that the more specific information you have the more accurate your analysis can be. But even if you don't know everything you can still objectively analyze what you do know; including asking what kinds of additional information would effect your moral judgement of the situation.



You seem to think that because some analysis is required that therefore it isn't objective... You are simply wrong here. Rather, if you didn't engage in any analysis of the situation to understand it then you would be engaging in subjective judgement. To arrive at an objective understanding of a situation you must necessarily evaluate the evidence logically.



While I would tend to agree with you - simply stating that it is so won't convince someone who doesn't already agree. The challenge is to build up an objective argument for why such a thing is wrong.




I'm not sure why you would think that - I built up an objective argument, on top of my original, for why favoritism is wrong. This is how you objectively develop a moral system.



Indeed, but we also commit sins in ignorance. Leviticus 5 addresses many such cases. Once you become aware of your sin, or if you suspect that you have sinned and feel guilty, then you are responsible for what you have done. However, in the interim, by the grace of God, you are not held responsible. Hence Jesus' prayer for his persecutors:

Luke 23:33-34 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.​

Yet the fact that they didn't understand they were doing wrong does not change the fact that they were doing wrong. We simply don't hold people responsible for doing wrong the same way as someone who does wrong knowingly. And rightfully so - for the latter does unjustified harm to you knowingly, disregarding your well-being.



Of course not. To understand why, however, we must understand the difference between the division caused by favoritism and the division that Christ speaks of; for they are distinct. To draw off of our earlier example, let us assume that you were born into white supremacy - you were taught from birth that favoritism for whites is the good and natural way of things, and everyone else gets what is coming to them. Now imagine someone convinces you of the completely wrong and sinful nature of white supremacy. A division will now occur between you and the white supremacists - even your own mother and father. For you see the error of their ways. If you refuse to participate in their delusion - and especially if you make known that you regard their ways as erroneous, then you are no longer one of them.

So you can see the difference between the two scenarios: in the earlier case the division is one in which you decide that one group is to favored over others, disregarding the well-being of others. In the second case, you realize that such is erroneous. A division is formed between you and those who believe that way since you reject their beliefs and sinful actions, and you make this dissent known. Perhaps you even try to convince others of the group that they are wrong. But, as we know, the group as whole won't accept this - and you will be shunned and/or persecuted as a result.

Such is the division that Christ speaks of - he has called us out from the sinful, worldly life that we find ourselves in. Not because the people of the world are to be hated or to be loved less, but because their ways are sinful. It is the world that has created divisions between the worth of people and who harm one another. You are being called out of all that and called to love even those that hate and persecute you. But this is contrary to the ways of the world, and so the world will hate you. God, on the other hand, desires for all to come to know the truth and be saved.

So division arises by recognizing the error of our ways - a division between us and those who share in that error. This is not to be considered sinful, for we seek what is true and good, and would have those still in error join us and repair the relations that were harmed as a result of the error. We would promote reconciliation between the divided parties - and we are rejected by those who would hold onto these divisions. Thus we aren't really creating any divisions in of ourselves - rather it is others who form divisions against us.



Being objective means that we look at the evidence and draw reasonable conclusions from it. There are no different standards for what it means to be objective. Whether someone is clearly at fault for something is based upon objective analysis of the evidence. Example: video footage of a man stealing followed by the man turning himself in and confessing to the crime. All else equal, it is objective to consider that this man did the deed.

I've already gone through and talked about judging cases where one relationship is harmed and another benefited, so I will not bother repeating all of that here. Go back and re-read the last post.



Again, go back and re-read the last post. The short answer: favoritism.



That is not entirely true. You don't know each other of course, but you can rightfully expect them to treat you morally and to abide the laws. If we couldn't expect even this, then society couldn't function save in very small units. So while you may not know one another, you are expected to respect one another. That is your relationship. And when you attack them out of the blue, you have degraded that relationship from an amiable one to a hostile one. You are no longer someone that that man, or anyone else for that matter, can trust to pass-by on the street while they carry out their business - you are someone the cops need to lock up lest you randomly attack more citizens.



First off, you contradict yourself. You just got through agreeing that it is possible to be both objective and wrong, and then you go on to to criticize my approach to morality because you might make an error and conclude that that's why you need an objective standard?!

Second off, as I pointed out earlier, abstract logic is perfectly good and necessary for discussing morality - especially the base principles and concepts. You are attempting to address any number of distinct situations - so there must be "wiggle room" for addressing important factors that differ between these scenarios. If you attempt to discuss morality from overly specific scenarios, then you will fail to produce a framework that can be generally applied to the different situations that we find ourselves in.



Can't say I'm terribly familiar with Ayn Rand. I've heard her name thrown around occasionally. Doing a quick lookup of her moral philosophy, it doesn't strike me as the least bit Christian. It sounds like she tried to take the old "greed is good" non-sense and propose that as morality. That could be an interesting thread in its own right, however: how does Ayn Rand's Objectivism compare to Christian Morality?


Ephesians 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​
csuguy,

I think that the impass we have reached has to do with your use of the word "objective". You seem the think that the mere use of reason makes you objective and while it isn't possible to be objective without the use of sound reason, it is not the only ingredient, especially when discussing morality. In order to be just, not only does the judge have to use sound reason but there must also be an objective standard. There is no objective standard in your system. And I've read and directly responded to each and every comment you've made in this discussion (prior to this post) and so I've not overlooked anything and I've not forgotten it either. There is NO objective standard in your system.

Your premise is that relationships are somehow an objective standard in spite of the fact that no two people in existence have ever had the same relationships. My relationships are different than yours and yours are different than your neighbors. And no matter how similar they might be, the fact is that they are different and therefore cannot possibly serve as an OBJECTIVE standard for morality because an objective standard would, by definition, have to be THE SAME for everyone. Otherwise, there is no choice but to do exactly as you have stated and play favorites which, by your own admission, is unjust.

What your system boils down to is situational ethics which is the polar opposite of an objective morality. There is no way you can declare any action to be obsolutely wrong because its the perpetrators's personality that determines the morality of the action rather than a standard which stands apart from him (i.e. which is objective).

An objective standard of morality allows you to state things like, "Murder is not only immoral it is criminal." Your system could make no such statement because the truth of such a statement depends upon, not only the specific personalities involved but also the situation they were in at the time. You might theorize that there could be no situation in which murder is permissible but it would only be theoretical at best because there is an infinite number of different ways different people with different personalities and from different cultures can interact with each other in millions upon millions of various possible situations.

What makes a standard objective is precisely the fact that it isn't dependant upon the person's involved or the situation they find themselves in. All "Thou shalt not murder." depends upon is the definition of the terms and nothing else. And that's not even the standard! That's part of the moral code that is based on the only objective standard I've ever heard proposed which is Life (or God - same thing).

Now, I know that all of that amount to me basically repeating my position but since you've not refuted my objections nor explained how relationships could serve as an OBJECTIVE standard, then I have little choice but to restate my objections in the hope that you'll either try again or concede the point.


As for Ayn Rand and "greed". It all depends on the definition of terms. "Greed" as the world (the left in particular) usually means it, is indeed good. It is avarice that is not good. Avarice is the love of money for money's sake which leads people to take a "the ends justifies the means" sort of mentality which leads them to cheat and/or defraud or otherwise make money by any means. That sort of greed is obviously immoral.
The desire to make a profit, however, is not evil (Matthew 13:45-46). And insistance upon being fairly compensated for goods and services you've provided is also not evil (Proverbs 11:1). In fact, the gospel itself is based upon just such an exchange. God does not steal us or in some other way pervert justice when He saves us. On the contrary, He has bought us at a price; the price that justice requires. Otherwise, Christ's death was not necissary.

So, to answer your question more directly, Rand's ethic has a great deal in common with the biblically Christian ethic but it also has a great many differences as well because she failed to understand that we are created beings or that God exists at all for that matter, which led her to a great many errors. But I'd venture to say that there are more similarities than there are differences because her core principle was sound reason and her objective standard of morality was the life of a rational being. That starting point put her on a path that was very nearly parallel with biblical Christianity (which is not the same thing as Catholocism or most other major Christian sects, by the way). I would also be forced to say that while there may be more similarities than difference, the differences are by no means trivial. In fact, they are rather catastrophic, to say the least. Quite wickedly evil and deplorable to tell you the truth. So, please don't mistake my comments about Rand as any sort of endorsement of her philosophy. I simply use portions an enemy's work as a way of rationally defending the Christian ethic that she both despised and stumbled onto in spite of herself. I like the irony of it.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

csuguy

Well-known member
csuguy,

I think that the impass we have reached has to do with your use of the word "objective". You seem the think that the mere use of reason makes you objective and while it isn't possible to be objective without the use of sound reason, it is not the only ingredient, especially when discussing morality. In order to be just, not only does the judge have to use sound reason but there must also be an objective standard. There is no objective standard in your system. And I've read and directly responded to each and every comment you've made in this discussion (prior to this post) and so I've not overlooked anything and I've not forgotten it either. There is NO objective standard in your system.

As you agreed with earlier, I have consistently stated that being objective is about analyzing the evidence to draw reasonable conclusions. Evidence + sound reason are what make an approach objective. I don't know what you are going on about needing some "objective standard" to make something objective. You would need to elaborate on why you think evidence + sound reason is insufficient in of itself to be objective, and where you are getting this idea.

Your premise is that relationships are somehow an objective standard in spite of the fact that no two people in existence have ever had the same relationships. My relationships are different than yours and yours are different than your neighbors. And no matter how similar they might be, the fact is that they are different and therefore cannot possibly serve as an OBJECTIVE standard for morality because an objective standard would, by definition, have to be THE SAME for everyone. Otherwise, there is no choice but to do exactly as you have stated and play favorites which, by your own admission, is unjust.

It's called abstract reasoning; you don't need things to be the exact same. So long as they are share similar significant characteristics you can use the same reasoning. You keep insisting that if you don't address the exact case in question that, therefore, it somehow isn't objective. This is non-sense. You would need to reject every single field of study in existence as non-objective if you did this.

And I've already addressed how to morally handle conflicts between two parties so as to not show favoritism: you fairly listen to both sides, evaluate the evidence, and reach a decision based upon the evidence rather than based upon who you like. ie, be objective in your analysis and judgement of such conflicts.

What your system boils down to is situational ethics which is the polar opposite of an objective morality. There is no way you can declare any action to be obsolutely wrong because its the perpetrators's personality that determines the morality of the action rather than a standard which stands apart from him (i.e. which is objective).

Incorrect, my morality does declare things absolutely wrong - like favoritism. In order to properly evaluate the morality of a given situation, however, you must analyze the situation to understand what principles are in play. Here's where you seem to have problems: you don't want to have to do any analysis to understand why people do what they do to know if the action was wrong or not - you just want to say "they did X and that's bad!"

This is short sided. Morality is not simply a question of the action itself, but of the conditions surrounding the action. For example: what was the intent of the action? Why did they want this to occur? Were they knowledgeable of how this would effect others, or ignorant? What then actually resulted? Did they take responsibility for the results of their actions? etc.

For a biblical example, consider the sin of murder vs. the act of killing. What distinguishes the action as a sin or not? For in some cases killing is OK and even commanded, while at other times it is condemned. Answer: It is the conditions surrounding the act that determine whether it was acceptable or not.

An objective standard of morality allows you to state things like, "Murder is not only immoral it is criminal." Your system could make no such statement because the truth of such a statement depends upon, not only the specific personalities involved but also the situation they were in at the time. You might theorize that there could be no situation in which murder is permissible but it would only be theoretical at best because there is an infinite number of different ways different people with different personalities and from different cultures can interact with each other in millions upon millions of various possible situations.

Not sure where you are going with that statement - you are confounding two different things. One doesn't necessitate the other - laws can be immoral. Hence: abortion.

What is clear is your continued mistrust of abstract reasoning - which is silly. Do you think physics addresses every single unique physical object in existence to develop its theories and laws? NO! And there is a lot more variation between the physical objects that physics talks about than people's personalities and relations. And they accomplish this feat through abstract reasoning.

What makes a standard objective is precisely the fact that it isn't dependant upon the person's involved or the situation they find themselves in. All "Thou shalt not murder." depends upon is the definition of the terms and nothing else. And that's not even the standard! That's part of the moral code that is based on the only objective standard I've ever heard proposed which is Life (or God - same thing).

WRONG: you can't be objective without understanding the situation in question. Being objective is about drawing reasonable conclusions from the evidence - and you want to toss out all the evidence! :maxi:

As for Ayn Rand and "greed". It all depends on the definition of terms. "Greed" as the world (the left in particular) usually means it, is indeed good. It is avarice that is not good. Avarice is the love of money for money's sake which leads people to take a "the ends justifies the means" sort of mentality which leads them to cheat and/or defraud or otherwise make money by any means. That sort of greed is obviously immoral.
The desire to make a profit, however, is not evil (Matthew 13:45-46). And insistance upon being fairly compensated for goods and services you've provided is also not evil (Proverbs 11:1). In fact, the gospel itself is based upon just such an exchange. God does not steal us or in some other way pervert justice when He saves us. On the contrary, He has bought us at a price; the price that justice requires. Otherwise, Christ's death was not necissary.

The standard meaning of the word is synonymous with avarice. You are pleading for a special case which doesn't exist. However, even if we accepted that she doesn't know how to use a dictionary and meant something different - you are still a far cry from anything remotely close to biblical morality.

With regards salvation and justice - you need to study up some more. Here is a parable describing the nature of salvation and forgiveness:

Matthew 18:21-35 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[g]

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”


When God forgives us - he simply cancels our debts by his good grace. However, should we then continue to act sinfully, especially refusing to show others the same mercy and forgiveness we have been shown, then God just as easily changes his mind and makes you responsible for your debts. The debt hasn't been paid, God has chosen to forget the debt. What Christ's death did was establish the New Covenant through which we have the opportunity to be born again, given a new life after this one. So we die once and then we are given a new life through him. And not just believers - everyone. Then comes the judgement for sins. But mercy triumphs over judgment.

So, to answer your question more directly, Rand's ethic has a great deal in common with the biblically Christian ethic but it also has a great many differences as well because she failed to understand that we are created beings or that God exists at all for that matter, which led her to a great many errors. But I'd venture to say that there are more similarities than there are differences because her core principle was sound reason and her objective standard of morality was the life of a rational being. That starting point put her on a path that was very nearly parallel with biblical Christianity (which is not the same thing as Catholocism or most other major Christian sects, by the way). I would also be forced to say that while there may be more similarities than difference, the differences are by no means trivial. In fact, they are rather catastrophic, to say the least. Quite wickedly evil and deplorable to tell you the truth. So, please don't mistake my comments about Rand as any sort of endorsement of her philosophy. I simply use portions an enemy's work as a way of rationally defending the Christian ethic that she both despised and stumbled onto in spite of herself. I like the irony of it.

You have yet to establish any kind of similarity between Christian Morality and Ayn Rand's Objectivism.
 
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Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Good thread with many interesting thoughts.

There has been some discussion on what man was created to do (good, bad, or both).

So I'm going to bring up Adam and Eve.

Was it "bad" for Adam and Eve to be naked before the tree of knowledge was planted and the command to not eat of it?
It seems that it was only after they ate of the tree that their eyes were opened and they realized their nakedness and tried to do something to hide their nakedness.

So here's the question:
Adam and Eve were naked before the command/law to not eat of the tree.
Why was it OK for them to be naked before they ate of the tree, but afterwards their nakedness needed to be covered?
GOD created them naked and said all He created was "good".
It was not until the command/law came and they disobeyed that their nakedness was now "not good".
Without that command/law, their "goodness" of being naked was not in question.

This might be what Paul was talking about when he says that he was alive without the law, but when the law came he was found to be "bad".

With the law, condemnation.
Without the law, no condemnation.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Good thread with many interesting thoughts.

Thanks :)

There has been some discussion on what man was created to do (good, bad, or both).

So I'm going to bring up Adam and Eve.

Was it "bad" for Adam and Eve to be naked before the tree of knowledge was planted and the command to not eat of it?
It seems that it was only after they ate of the tree that their eyes were opened and they realized their nakedness and tried to do something to hide their nakedness.

So here's the question:
Adam and Eve were naked before the command/law to not eat of the tree.
Why was it OK for them to be naked before they ate of the tree, but afterwards their nakedness needed to be covered?
GOD created them naked and said all He created was "good".
It was not until the command/law came and they disobeyed that their nakedness was now "not good".
Without that command/law, their "goodness" of being naked was not in question.

Personally, I don't believe being naked was or is a sin in of itself. I do not believe God would have created man in a sinful state and declared it "good." Rather, I'd say that all natural desires and states are created by God intentionally with a purpose, and are good. However, these desires can be acted in in an impure manner, and that is sinful. Take hunger for example: a good, necessary feeling to tell us to eat and sustain our bodies. Gluttony, on the other hand, is a warped version of hunger - pushing the body to consume more and more beyond what is healthy, until it actually negatively effects one's health.

Additionally, God's first command was for us to reproduce. God would not command something sinful.

With regards to them becoming aware of their nakedness and wanting to hide it - I tend to view this as representative of the guilt they felt for their transgression, and of their loss of innocence. Out of fear and shame, they wanted to hide their transgression from each other and from God.

God didn't give them clothes because their naked bodies were sinful, but because they were ashamed. It was a way to ease their conscious so that they would come back out and commune with God. This was the first 'veil' if you will - the first barrier that man's sin produced that separated himself from God.

This might be what Paul was talking about when he says that he was alive without the law, but when the law came he was found to be "bad".

With the law, condemnation.
Without the law, no condemnation.

Ignorance is an interesting thing to consider when speaking of morality. I think most everyone would agree that there is a clear distinction between knowingly harming someone and doing so ignorantly. However, just because someone is ignorant does not make the harm they caused go away; they are still guilty and will be held responsible.

Consider that while walking through a store with headphones on - you bump into something that falls and shatters. You didn't see or hear it - but you nevertheless broke a product. If you leave without anyone noticing, this is no different from stealing. And if you are confronted by a store clerk to pay for it - your claims of ignorance won't be accepted as a reason for not paying. If you refuse to pay - say even after seeing video footage so you know you did it - then you are further sinning by not taking responsibility.

But we recognize even the latter case as distinct from someone walking into a store and intentionally going around and ruining the merchandise - even if they later pay for it. We can expect much more severe consequences for one who intentionally does this than one who accidentally does it. Probably at least a ban from the store, if not some jail time.

Leviticus 5 speaks of sins committed in ignorance:

Leviticus 5:17-19 “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible. 18 They are to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for them for the wrong they have committed unintentionally, and they will be forgiven. 19 It is a guilt offering; they have been guilty of[e] wrongdoing against the Lord.”​

Similarly, Christ prayers that those who persecuted and killed him be forgiven - because they were ignorant. Why should they need to be forgiven if their ignorance means that there is no sin?

Luke 23:33-35 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”​
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
As you agreed with earlier, I have consistently stated that being objective is about analyzing the evidence to draw reasonable conclusions. Evidence + sound reason are what make an approach objective. I don't know what you are going on about needing some "objective standard" to make something objective. You would need to elaborate on why you think evidence + sound reason is insufficient in of itself to be objective, and where you are getting this idea.



It's called abstract reasoning; you don't need things to be the exact same. So long as they are share similar significant characteristics you can use the same reasoning. You keep insisting that if you don't address the exact case in question that, therefore, it somehow isn't objective. This is non-sense. You would need to reject every single field of study in existence as non-objective if you did this.

And I've already addressed how to morally handle conflicts between two parties so as to not show favoritism: you fairly listen to both sides, evaluate the evidence, and reach a decision based upon the evidence rather than based upon who you like. ie, be objective in your analysis and judgement of such conflicts.



Incorrect, my morality does declare things absolutely wrong - like favoritism. In order to properly evaluate the morality of a given situation, however, you must analyze the situation to understand what principles are in play. Here's where you seem to have problems: you don't want to have to do any analysis to understand why people do what they do to know if the action was wrong or not - you just want to say "they did X and that's bad!"

This is short sided. Morality is not simply a question of the action itself, but of the conditions surrounding the action. For example: what was the intent of the action? Why did they want this to occur? Were they knowledgeable of how this would effect others, or ignorant? What then actually resulted? Did they take responsibility for the results of their actions? etc.

For a biblical example, consider the sin of murder vs. the act of killing. What distinguishes the action as a sin or not? For in some cases killing is OK and even commanded, while at other times it is condemned. Answer: It is the conditions surrounding the act that determine whether it was acceptable or not.



Not sure where you are going with that statement - you are confounding two different things. One doesn't necessitate the other - laws can be immoral. Hence: abortion.

What is clear is your continued mistrust of abstract reasoning - which is silly. Do you think physics addresses every single unique physical object in existence to develop its theories and laws? NO! And there is a lot more variation between the physical objects that physics talks about than people's personalities and relations. And they accomplish this feat through abstract reasoning.



WRONG: you can't be objective without understanding the situation in question. Being objective is about drawing reasonable conclusions from the evidence - and you want to toss out all the evidence! :maxi:



The standard meaning of the word is synonymous with avarice. You are pleading for a special case which doesn't exist. However, even if we accepted that she doesn't know how to use a dictionary and meant something different - you are still a far cry from anything remotely close to biblical morality.

With regards salvation and justice - you need to study up some more. Here is a parable describing the nature of salvation and forgiveness:

Matthew 18:21-35 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[g]

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”


When God forgives us - he simply cancels our debts by his good grace. However, should we then continue to act sinfully, especially refusing to show others the same mercy and forgiveness we have been shown, then God just as easily changes his mind and makes you responsible for your debts. The debt hasn't been paid, God has chosen to forget the debt. What Christ's death did was establish the New Covenant through which we have the opportunity to be born again, given a new life after this one. So we die once and then we are given a new life through him. And not just believers - everyone. Then comes the judgement for sins. But mercy triumphs over judgment.



You have yet to establish any kind of similarity between Christian Morality and Ayn Rand's Objectivism.


You don't even understand what the word objective means and present situational ethics as though it were a objective and then you want to lecture me about the gospel?

I can tell you that I won't permit that to continue at all.

Words mean things, csuguy. A standard of morality that is depentant upon and varies with the people involved is not objective, BY DEFINITION!

Since you do not deny that your standard is so based, there is nothing left to debate. If you contuinue to tell people that your standard is objective then it will be objectively true that you are a liar. Prior to this discussion you may have been able to claim that you had simply made an error and had been using the term by mistake but that is no longer true possible. Your use of the term objective applies to people making the judgment and their state of mind not to the standard of right and wrong that they are using to make that judgment, which is neither standard nor objective at all because it isn't even standardized! It's different for every person or group of different persons and every concievable situation. That isn't a standard by anyone's definition anywhere in the world and never has been.



Resting in Him,
Clete
 

csuguy

Well-known member
You don't even understand what the word objective means and present situational ethics as though it were a objective and then you want to lecture me about the gospel?

I can tell you that I won't permit that to continue at all.

Words mean things, csuguy. A standard of morality that is depentant upon and varies with the people involved is not objective, BY DEFINITION!

First - I've never stated that morality changes based upon who you are talking about. It's not matter of the individuals involved, but a matter of understanding the situation. By understanding the situation we can know what moral principles to apply in evaluating it. If you put different people in the exact same situation, you would evaluate it the exact same way.

Second - you keep insisting my use of the term objective is wrong, but fail to put forth any evidence to this effect. If you think my use of the term objective to be wrong - then demonstrate this using a dictionary.

Since you do not deny that your standard is so based, there is nothing left to debate. If you contuinue to tell people that your standard is objective then it will be objectively true that you are a liar. Prior to this discussion you may have been able to claim that you had simply made an error and had been using the term by mistake but that is no longer true possible. Your use of the term objective applies to people making the judgment and their state of mind not to the standard of right and wrong that they are using to make that judgment, which is neither standard nor objective at all because it isn't even standardized! It's different for every person or group of different persons and every concievable situation. That isn't a standard by anyone's definition anywhere in the world and never has been.



Resting in Him,
Clete

As I pointed out above - the morality I put forth is not individually based. It is built upon abstract principles - like our social nature, that favoritism is wrong, etc. Applying this to form a moral judgement of a situation requires understanding the situation, but the moral principles do not change because you are speaking of "Susan" instead of "John" - or whoever else.

This is more complex than what you may be used to - condemning action X simply because it is action X, but it is a far better model. Often times the same action can be used for good or for ill - as I pointed out with the sin of murder vs the act of killing in my last post. This is a far more biblical model.
 

Ben Masada

New member
You need to develop your position a bit more before it can be meaningfully discussed. Why do you state that "the only morality being what is akin to the State."? And why do you conclude this is objective? And if this "morality" leads people to being amoral, then wouldn't you say this approach isn't very good?

A bold, but baseless accusation.

Yes, I thought you had conceived the idea that amorality in my words above was horrible and the worse option to take, although one does not take to be amoral. He or she is one for having been cultured that way. Then, regarding the charge of "baseless accusation" it was not fair because I am sure I did not deserve that if you had really understood my post. And for Paul being amoral, all you had to do to see what I meant was to read chapter 7 of Romans. He was so amoral that he wish he were not but he couldn't. He had been cultured that way.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Solzhenitsyn said that there is no state line...class line...party line etc that seperates good from evil. He says that line runs through every human heart. 'God' and evil exist within each of us, but we are all sinners. As R.C.Sproule says, "We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners".

How about Jesus? Was he a sinner because he sinned or he sinned because he was a sinner? I am referring to Mat. 23:13-33 when he, for 15 times broke the Golden Rule charging the Jewish authorities with being hypocrite and brood of vipers. And another occasion was when he armed himself with a whip and caused financial and physical damages to the money changers on that area before the Temple when they had fully permission from the High Priest to help Jews coming from abroad to change their currency with the Temple shekel so that they could offer a kosher sacrifice. The Golden Rule states not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. I am sure Jesus would not have liked to be treated the way he treated the Pharisees or to be handled with the way he did the money changers. Since the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue, Jesus seriously transgressed the Law and became a sinner just as you and I are. Okay, what do you say?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
How about Jesus? Was he a sinner because he sinned or he sinned because he was a sinner? I am referring to Mat. 23:13-33 when he, for 15 times broke the Golden Rule charging the Jewish authorities with being hypocrite and brood of vipers. And another occasion was when he armed himself with a whip and caused financial and physical damages to the money changers on that area before the Temple when they had fully permission from the High Priest to help Jews coming from abroad to change their currency with the Temple shekel so that they could offer a kosher sacrifice. The Golden Rule states not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. I am sure Jesus would not have liked to be treated the way he treated the Pharisees or to be handled with the way he did the money changers. Since the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue, Jesus seriously transgressed the Law and became a sinner just as you and I are. Okay, what do you say?

I say you are guilty of blasphemy.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
How about Jesus? Was he a sinner because he sinned or he sinned because he was a sinner? I am referring to Mat. 23:13-33 when he, for 15 times broke the Golden Rule charging the Jewish authorities with being hypocrite and brood of vipers. And another occasion was when he armed himself with a whip and caused financial and physical damages to the money changers on that area before the Temple when they had fully permission from the High Priest to help Jews coming from abroad to change their currency with the Temple shekel so that they could offer a kosher sacrifice. The Golden Rule states not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. I am sure Jesus would not have liked to be treated the way he treated the Pharisees or to be handled with the way he did the money changers. Since the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue, Jesus seriously transgressed the Law and became a sinner just as you and I are. Okay, what do you say?

Matt 22:29, Galatians 4:24.
 

Epoisses

New member
How about Jesus? Was he a sinner because he sinned or he sinned because he was a sinner? I am referring to Mat. 23:13-33 when he, for 15 times broke the Golden Rule charging the Jewish authorities with being hypocrite and brood of vipers. And another occasion was when he armed himself with a whip and caused financial and physical damages to the money changers on that area before the Temple when they had fully permission from the High Priest to help Jews coming from abroad to change their currency with the Temple shekel so that they could offer a kosher sacrifice. The Golden Rule states not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. I am sure Jesus would not have liked to be treated the way he treated the Pharisees or to be handled with the way he did the money changers. Since the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue, Jesus seriously transgressed the Law and became a sinner just as you and I are. Okay, what do you say?

Let's stand with Israel because they hold the same values as we do. OMG! when are people ever going to wake up.
 
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