Theology Club: Numbers 14:11- 20--the power of petition before God.

[Angel4Truth]

You know what I believe? Hardly. Try again.

Seem to believe is a statement that escapes you obviously.

I know my dog will eat any food I might leave lying around so I have a plan. I don't plan to leave anything edible lying around unless it is for the dog.

I do not make my dog eat but I know he will. Does that mean I know the future?

Now you are confusing the general tendencies with the specific choices.

No, you are comparing God who knows all things to a human who doesnt.

I see you also cannot and will not answer my questions.

 

[Eeset]

I see you also cannot and will not answer my questions.

As I said you present a false dichotomy. Do you understand the concept?

 

[Angel4Truth]

As I said you present a false dichotomy. Do you understand the concept?

Obviously you aren't going to answer them. Thanks.

 

[Eeset]

If the theology of Predestination as Calvinism presupposes is true, then prayer would be worthless. We would be compelled to rewrite much of the Bible or just plain ignore it. The Open View is gaining popularity because it deals with scriptures like the one below.

Numbers 14:11- 20
<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Then the Lord said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.”


The LORD's intention is to destroy Israel and make of Moses a nation because Israel has repeatedly rejected God and has been a disappointment.


<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>And Moses said to the Lord: “Then the Egyptians will hear it, for by Your might You brought these people up from among them, <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Now if You kill these people as one man, then the nations which have heard of Your fame will speak, saying, <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>‘Because the Lord was not able to bring this people to the land which He swore to give them, therefore He killed them in the wilderness.’ <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>And now, I pray, let the power of my Lord be great, just as You have spoken, saying, <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>‘The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’ <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.”


Moses pleads mercy for Israel before God, asking God to pardon Israel for her iniquity.

<sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Then the Lord said: “I have pardoned, according to your word;



God relents. It by no means makes God vacillating or weak.


The Bible is full of scriptures like these where God responds to petition.

Mankind is incapable of comprehending God in my opinion.

 

[Tambora]

Let's start with an instance very early in history.

Genesis 2 KJV
(19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
​

I've read this in both Greek and Hebrew.
The impression I get is the same as it appears in English.

Equivalent as I would bring my child a pet dog to see what my child would name it.
The very language of this verse implies that God actually did bring the animals to Adam to see what he would call them.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Let's start with an instance very early in history.

Genesis 2 KJV
(19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
​

I've read this in both Greek and Hebrew.
The impression I get is the same as it appears in English.

Equivalent as I would bring my child a pet dog to see what my child would name it.
The very language of this verse implies that God actually did bring the animals to Adam to see what he would call them.

I agree, i think God was known in actual being to Adam before the fall, and actually appeared to Him before sin separated them.

 

[Tambora]

Let's start with an instance very early in history.

Genesis 2 KJV
(19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
​

I've read this in both Greek and Hebrew.
The impression I get is the same as it appears in English.

Equivalent as I would bring my child a pet dog to see what my child would name it.
The very language of this verse implies that God actually did bring the animals to Adam to see what he would call them.

I agree, i think God was known in actual being to Adam before the fall, and actually appeared to Him before sin separated them.

I'm glad you agree.
It shows that if God already knew what Adam would call them, then He would not need to see what Adam would call them.
No foreknowledge in this case.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I'm glad you agree.
It shows that if God already knew what Adam would call them, then He would not need to see what Adam would call them.
No foreknowledge in this case.

I disagree, Adam still needed to perform the action and it was more the offering of a gift to Adam and i completely disagree that the verse has anything whatever to do with the subject of foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge is the knowledge that Adam would sin, and having already made a plan of salvation which required foreknowledge.

So, did God make Adam sin, or did He already know He would which is why He made a plan of salvation?

 

[Tambora]

I disagree, Adam still needed to perform the action and it was more the offering of a gift to Adam and i completely disagree that the verse has anything whatever to do with the subject of foreknowledge.

Disagree all you want.
It doesn't change the fact that God brought Adam the animals to see what he would call them.


to see what (((??????))) he would call them

God didn't bring Adam the animals to watch him name the animals, but to see what he would name them.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Disagree all you want.
It doesn't change the fact that God brought Adam the animals to see what he would call them.


to see what (((??????))) he would call them

God didn't bring Adam the animals to watch him name the animals, but to see what he would name them.

He was presenting them as a gift, not to see what he would call them in that He didn't know but more like to watch and enjoy seeing Adam name them like any good Father would enjoy watching their child when giving them a gift.

 

[Tambora]

He was presenting them as a gift,

That's not in the text.

not to see what he would call them in that He didn't know

If that were the case, then "what" would not even be in the sentence, but simply had said "to see him name them" instead of "to see what he would name them".

 

[Angel4Truth]

That's not in the text.


If that were the case, then "what" would not even be in the sentence, but simply had said "to see him name them" instead of "to see what he would name them".

I disagree, sorry, i believe the wording is as close as can be translated from Hebrew to English and is simply showing that God was there experiencing it with Adam.

I believe you are reading more into it than what is there, and if they were not a gift to Adam then why do the scriptures say that Adam was given dominion over them? Does the verse need to say to gift in order for it to be perfectly clear that they were a gift to man?

We just disagree, in no way do i believe that verse means God didnt know what Adam would do, but that God was merely watching and delighting in the process.

 

[Tambora]

I disagree, sorry,

No need to be sorry.
If you disagree, you disagree.

If I thought it would do any good, I could give other scriptures that have the same construction ("to see what"), and each of them implies anticipation rather than a knowing.

Be well, A4T. I love ya.
Over and out for me.

 

[Angel4Truth]

No need to be sorry.
If you disagree, you disagree.

If I thought it would do any good, I could give other scriptures that have the same construction ("to see what"), and each of them implies anticipation rather than a knowing.

Be well, A4T. I love ya.
Over and out for me.

Love you too sissy - i am literally hung on knowing we would sin and i cant for the life of me fathom being unable to make a choice if God knows what the choice we make is.

I would have to be able to get past that, to see the scripture you posted and wording that could be that way, to be that way, instead of more like what i said.

Have a great night (((((((hugs)))))))))

 

[surrender]

Surrender, you are throwing out strawmen now, i never said anything about Jesus knowing Judas would betray him based on any amount of time, you are adding to my words.

I’m adding to your words, because you made a claim without giving me any reference from Scripture. I had to guess what you were talking about.

Not interested in chasing down all you keep adding, please just answer my question if you can or will –

I’m adding? I’m answering questions that YOU have asked. Honestly, what nerve you have. Here I am taking time to answer your questions and you don’t thank me but say, “Why do you keep adding to your posts?” Oh brother!

How does God make your choice for you, just because He already knows what you will choose?

If you read the above post, you would have seen the answser to this question:

We have explained it. The explanation is satisfactory to those of us who’ve given you the explanation but it’s not satisfactory to you. Before I believed in this view, I asked the question you asked and the answer I’ve given you (given by another, of course) immediately resonated with me. It seemed obvious. I was surprised at myself for never realizing the logic of it long before. Everyone is different. If you don’t see it, you don’t see it.

I don’t think you’ll get more than what we’ve given you. If you’re not satisfied, then don’t embrace this view. No one asked you to.

Im not interested in anything else till you respond to that.

Then stop asking other questions that lead to answers not directly answering the one you want answered. Sheesh!

 

[Lighthouse]

You didnt answer my question, and that is my biggest issue with open theism, it doesnt answer that question.

One more time - HOW does God being able to know what you will choose, stop your ability to make a choice?

I've answered this question already, and you ignore it.

No, but that is irrelevant. You still chose to lie and he just knew you were going to.

But where's the choice if you can't choose not to lie?

Just like Jesus already knew who would betray Him. Pretty clear He knew it, so did Jesus make Judas betray Him, or did He just know that is what would happen?

If Christ made Him, then Judas had no free will.

When did Jesus know Judas would betray Him? Before, or after Judas had decided to do so?

You guys are who are trying to claim that foreknowledge doesnt mean foreknowledge yet you admit He knew man would sin - well if He knew, then He either sees the future or He made man sin, there is no other way to see that.

Yes there is. Have you ever seen A Christmas Story? If you have then you know the most famous line, "You'll shoot your eye out."

Now, of course we know he didn't, but he did injure himself and thought he had lost his eye at first.

We also know the adults were being a little stupid with that warning, as one cannot shoot oneself when pointing the gun in the opposite direction. In order to shoot his eye out he would have had to do it on purpose. But we also know the adults were speaking in hyperbole. They really just meant the kid would hurt himself. And he did, didn't he? Did the adults make him? Of course not. Could they see the future in the way you say God can? No. But they had foreknowledge nonetheless, because they knew the kid was not prepared for shooting a gun, even a BB gun.

So, we see that foreknowledge can exist if based upon present knowledge. So when Jesus knew Judas would betray Him Judas had already made plans to do so. And when Jesus told Peter he would betray Him three times before the rooster crowed it was because Peter was weak and scared, and Jesus knew that if Peter were questioned regarding his connection to Jesus after Jesus was arrested that Peter would deny it, out of fear.

I keep noting that none of you will or can explain WHY you cannot make a choice, just because He already knows what you will choose.

You can keep beating around the bush but untill you can answer that, i cannot believe open theism.

I already have, and you left the conversation.

 

[Delmar]

How does God make your choice for you, just because He already knows what you will choose?

Im not interested in anything else till you respond to that.

Seems to me if God knows my choice to a certainty, before I made the choice, I would not have the ability to do otherwise. You, it seems, do not agree.

 

[surrender]

But where's the choice if you can't choose not to lie?

Exactly!

When did Jesus know Judas would betray Him? Before, or after Judas had decided to do so?

Good question. I’d like to hear Angel4Truth’s answer, as well.

So, we see that foreknowledge can exist if based upon present knowledge. So when Jesus knew Judas would betray Him Judas had already made plans to do so. And when Jesus told Peter he would betray Him three times before the rooster crowed it was because Peter was weak and scared, and Jesus knew that if Peter were questioned regarding his connection to Jesus after Jesus was arrested that Peter would deny it, out of fear.

Excellent points!

 

[zippy2006]

There is a more fundamental problem with petitionary prayer which can be found here.

One more time - HOW does God being able to know what you will choose, stop your ability to make a choice?

If your choice is to be free then it cannot be determined. So if you have choice A and choice B and are free, then you are able to choose either one, right? If you choose B then you can legitimately say, "I could have chosen A had I wanted to," and vice-versa.

But if there is certain knowledge that you will choose A, then apparently you are not able to choose B. So if God says to you today that tomorrow you will certainly have a hamburger for lunch, are you free to have a piece of pizza for lunch? Are you justified in saying, "Tomorrow I am free to choose whatever I want for lunch"?

If you are in fact free, then you can in fact choose the pizza, and thereby show God to be incorrect. If you cannot choose the pizza, then you are not free to choose either a hamburger or a piece of pizza. That's a dilemma.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Seems to me if God knows my choice to a certainty, before I made the choice, I would not have the ability to do otherwise. You, it seems, do not agree.

Then he would know you made a different choice if you made a different one, how is he choosing just because he knows about your choice?