How can I have a choice if I've already made it somewhere "out there"? In God's mind or in the pseudo-universe or whatever, did I or did I not already make a choice before I was born in real time?
Theology Club: Numbers 14:11- 20--the power of petition before God.
- Thread starter Sherman
- Start date
Again, how does him knowing ahead of time what you chose, mean you didnt choose it?
I didn't choose. My pseudo-self chose.
Why does open theism need to answer the question, how does God knowing what you will choose stop your ability to make a choice? Whether it answers it to your satisfaction or not doesn’t change the fact that God doesn’t know all future things as settled, as shown in Scripture. It doesn’t change the fact that Scripture doesn’t teach that God is outside of time. So, why would an answer to that question stand in your way?
I think it does teach it, and there is no way i could believe open theism unless someone could answer that question.
God knew man would sin, and made a plan for it.
This means God saw that man would sin, which requires foreknowledge (which scripture says He has)
or, it means that God made us sin.
Its one or the other.
So for me to believe open theism, i need an open theist to explain to me why God cannot know what you will choose without making the choice for you.
Not one has answered that yet.
I have heard it claimed by many, that the open view is a brand new concept. How could this be true if so many of the players in the events of the Bible thought it worthwhile to petition God?
If God were to say that before the sun sets tomorrow, you will tell a lie ........ , then is there ANY possibility at all that you will not tell a lie before the sun sets tomorrow?
My good buddy Yorzhik pointed this out to me quite some years ago that this is the case with almost all "former Christians". The problem is, if you believe that God scripted your life in advance, any time a tragedy comes you are faced with the idea that God wanted bad things to happen to you!
You think it teaches what? That all the future is settled? If so, Scripture, please.
That God is outside of time? If so, Scripture, please.
That God has foreknowledge? If so, I agree.
God foreknew man would sin. That doesn’t mean all the future is settled.
God foreknows ALL things. What I don’t think Scripture teaches is that God foreknows all things as settled. Some things, yes, but not all things.
Now, if God foreknows as fact that I’ll eat pancakes for breakfast tomorrow, do I have a choice not to eat pancakes tomorrow? If I really have a choice, then it’s possible for me to eat cereal tomorrow.
So, is it possible for me to eat cereal tomorrow if God foreknows as fact that I’ll eat pancakes tomorrow? No, it’s not possible. I don't really have a choice.
I agree.
If you could make the choice to eat cereal, then God's "foreknowledge" of what you would eat would be wrong.
If God's foreknowledge were indeed FACT, then there is no possibility at all that you could chose to eat cereal.
And if there is no possibility at all that you could chose to eat cereal, then there is no choice at all.
No, but that is irrelevant. You still chose to lie and he just knew you were going to.
Just like Jesus already knew who would betray Him. Pretty clear He knew it, so did Jesus make Judas betray Him, or did He just know that is what would happen?
If Christ made Him, then Judas had no free will.
Which passage are you referring to?
If it’s John 6:64, notice that this doesn’t say that Jesus knew from all eternity who would betray him. This just means that Jesus knew who would betray him from early on, from the moment he resolved to betray him in his heart. God has perfect knowledge of everything in our hearts.
Why do i need to provide scriptures about what happens in the future? I dont know what happens but i believe that He does and ive already provided scriptures that show it based on His foreknowledge. The bible also specifically says that He does not change.
You guys are who are trying to claim that foreknowledge doesnt mean foreknowledge yet you admit He knew man would sin - well if He knew, then He either sees the future or He made man sin, there is no other way to see that.
I keep noting that none of you will or can explain WHY you cannot make a choice, just because He already knows what you will choose.
You can keep beating around the bush but untill you can answer that, i cannot believe open theism.
You said, “I think it does teach it.” I don’t know what you’re talking about. You think Scripture teaches WHAT? That God knows what happens in the future? Of course, He does! But not always as SETTLED FACT. There are many Scriptures which show that God doesn’t know all future events as settled fact.
Do you have the verse and its context? What about God doesn’t change? Did you ever think that maybe that’s speaking about God’s character?
Are you trying to tell me that God doesn’t have emotions? God can’t go from anger to grief to pleasure? He is emotionless towards His creatures, being unable to “change”? Is that what you would classify as a perfect God? It is precisely because God has an unchanging loving character that He MUST change and react to His creatures with anger, grief, pleasure, etc.
You’ll have to copy and paste that. I haven’t seen anyone make that claim.
God being infinite could see that man, given the circumstances God would put him in and with enough time, would at some point sin. God can see every single possible scenario. He knew that each one would eventually lead man to sin. Yes, that means that God has foreknowledge but it doesn’t mean God knows all the future as settled fact.
We have explained it. The explanation is satisfactory to those of us who’ve given you the explanation but it’s not satisfactory to you. Before I believed in this view, I asked the question you asked and the answer I’ve given you (given by another, of course) immediately resonated with me. It seemed obvious. I was surprised at myself for never realizing the logic of it long before. Everyone is different. If you don’t see it, you don’t see it.
Who says you must? Didn’t you willingly come to this thread?
Surrender, you are throwing out strawmen now, i never said anything about Jesus knowing Judas would betray him based on any amount of time, you are adding to my words.
Not interested in chasing down all you keep adding, please just answer my question if you can or will -
How does God make your choice for you, just because He already knows what you will choose?
Im not interested in anything else till you respond to that.
Not interested in chasing down all you keep adding, please just answer my question if you can or will -
How does God make your choice for you, just because He already knows what you will choose?
Im not interested in anything else till you respond to that.
Did God make man sin? If not then he sees the future? That is a classic false dichotomy.
I have a dog. I know him very well. He has a tremendous sense of smell and a voracious appetite. If he smells food he will find it and eat. Do I foresee the future if I leave a piece of chicken on the counter?
I have a dog. I know him very well. He has a tremendous sense of smell and a voracious appetite. If he smells food he will find it and eat. Do I foresee the future if I leave a piece of chicken on the counter?
You would if you made him perfect. Do you believe God made man flawed?
Flawed? That would mean he produced something that was not as He designed it. Or are you defining flawed in some other way?
imperfect, incomplete - not whole.
Was man fully without sin- fully complete in God, yet sinned on his own, or did God make man sin?
If God did not know the future and adams choices were totally without Gods knowledge and everything on both sides were a complete unknown as you seem to believe - then why did God make a plan of salvation? That alone says God knew man would sin, before it happened since the bible is clear the plan of salvation was before man was even created.
So again what no one wants to respond to:
1)Did God make man sin, or did God know the future. It can only be one or the other.
2) How does God knowing what we all ultimately choose, mean He makes the choice for us?
You know what I believe? Hardly. Try again.
I know my dog will eat any food I might leave lying around so I have a plan. I don't plan to leave anything edible lying around unless it is for the dog.
I do not make my dog eat but I know he will. Does that mean I know the future?
Now you are confusing the general tendencies with the specific choices.