Nontrinitarianism

[RevTestament]

Your perversion is the same as when you say that Yeshua being one with the Father makes him God Almighty while ignoring the fact that he prays that we may all be one with him just as he is one with the Father. Therefore your perversion of the Scripture now doubles down on your own (hopefully) inadvertent claim that you yourself are God Almighty:

You pervert this:

John 10:29-30 KJV
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

And you subvert this which speaks of the exact same subject:

John 17:11-12 KJV
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

And you continue by also subverting this:

John 17:20-23 KJV
20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

In like manner you pervert this:

Revelation 22:3 KJV
3. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

And in like manner to the previous example you subvert this:

Revelation 3:21 KJV
21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And thereby you (hopefully inadvertently) claim to be God Almighty yourself! :crackup:
Sorry, but I cannot and do not believe your claims of Godhead . . .

Jerry does not claim to be El Gibbor, God Almighty.
That is a title that Jesus will inherit per Isa 9:6 despite your twisting of the reading to read as you like. The plain fact of scripture is that Jesus is JHWH Elohim with the Father, and inherited His name per Hebrews, and yet inherits His Father's throne.
Perhaps Jerry is just trying to follow what scripture says, and what Christ Himself said, which people like you deny. You quote the verses but your interpretation renders them as meaningless.

 

[daqq]

Jerry does not claim to be El Gibbor, God Almighty.
That is a title that Jesus will inherit per Isa 9:6 despite your twisting of the reading to read as you like. The plain fact of scripture is that Jesus is JHWH Elohim with the Father, and inherited His name per Hebrews, and yet inherits His Father's throne.
Perhaps Jerry is just trying to follow what scripture says, and what Christ Himself said, which people like you deny. You quote the verses but your interpretation renders them as meaningless.

What I posted above is taking the greater context of the Scripture where it speaks of the same subject matter which you, like Jerry, apparently also ignore. In other words, like Jerry and most of mainstream Christianity, you cherry pick what you want and subvert what contradicts your theories. However, you being a Mormon, it is no surprise that what I posted above struck such a nerve with you; for you do indeed believe that one day you too will be like a God, correct? And do you not believe that the Father was once a man?

You see Jerry? You now have a Mormon sticking up for your position:
That alone should tell you something about what was posted . . . :crackup:

 

[keypurr]

We all know who you are. You're the Keypurr that puts God above your head and Jesus under your feet. You treat jesus terribly.

Not so Puppet, Jesus Christ is my Lord.
Saying what you said is way out of line.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Not so Puppet, Jesus Christ is my Lord.
Saying what you said is way out of line.

You have a "warped" sense of who Jesus is.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

IMJ is what would be called a, Know-it-all. She's arrogant, egocentric, stubborn, and unteachable.

You have no way of knowing what she is.

You only condemn yourself like any common Pharisee who only sees and speaks evil of yourself.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

No matter how hard you try to pervert what is said in the 22nd chapter of the Revelation these facts remain:

The following verse is speaking of only "one" throne:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

Here is what John saw and heard while he was at that throne, the throne of God and of the Lamb:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

Here we read the one on the throne saying, "I will be his God." This is God speaking and since there can only be ONE who is the beginning and the end and the Alpha and the Omega, then it cannot be denied that the one speaking is Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

These are the words of the Lord Jesus because He is the one who says, "I come quickly" (Rev.22:20).

There is only "One" on the Throne of God and the Lamb, and that proves that the Lord Jesus is God--the Alpha and Omega and the Beginning and the End.

So who is sitting on the Throne before Jesus is presented to Him?

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.



Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


LA

 

[Puppet]

Not so Puppet, Jesus Christ is my Lord.
Saying what you said is way out of line.

I gave been reading your posts and you don't want jesus to be anywhere close to God. You want them separated like you interfering between them. If Jesus and God joined, you would dive into stop them cause of your misinterpretation.

 

[RevTestament]

What I posted above is taking the greater context of the Scripture where it speaks of the same subject matter which you, like Jerry, apparently also ignore. In other words, like Jerry and most of mainstream Christianity, you cherry pick what you want and subvert what contradicts your theories. However, you being a Mormon, it is no surprise that what I posted above struck such a nerve with you; for you do indeed believe that one day you too will be like a God, correct? And do you not believe that the Father was once a man?

You see Jerry? You now have a Mormon sticking up for your position:
That alone should tell you something about what was posted . . . :crackup:

I believe the purpose of Christianity is to become more like Christ - He is our teacher. The fact that some cannot see what is being taught doesn't change the truth of what scripture says. Can a follower sit in His throne or not?

 

[keypurr]

I gave been reading your posts and you don't want jesus to be anywhere close to God. You want them separated like you interfering between them. If Jesus and God joined, you would dive into stop them cause of your misinterpretation.

You do not have a clue as to my faith Puppet. You would not make a statement like that if you did. Jesus is the flesh son of God, Christ is the spirit son of God. No one can separate the love they have for each other, and no man can separate me from my God or my Lord.

You have some strange ideas.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You do not have a clue as to my faith Puppet. You would not make a statement like that if you did. Jesus is the flesh son of God, Christ is the spirit son of God. No one can separate the love they have for each other, and no man can separate me from my God or my Lord.

You have some strange ideas.

You both do!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You have no way of knowing what she is.

You only condemn yourself like any common Pharisee who only sees and speaks evil of yourself.

LA

:crackup:

 

[daqq]

I believe the purpose of Christianity is to become more like Christ - He is our teacher. The fact that some cannot see what is being taught doesn't change the truth of what scripture says. Can a follower sit in His throne or not?

You have not understood the point that was being made: just because a disciple can be seated in the throne of Messiah with him, as he says, does not make the disciple God Almighty. Therefore if you say that Yeshua must be God Almighty because he and his Father are one, as most of Trinitarianism does, then you also say that you are God Almighty because you and Messiah are supposed to be "one" in the exact same way that he is "one" with his Father and our Father, (and by the way this concerns some of the function of the office of the Mediator). In the same exact way then, if you say that Yeshua is God Almighty because he is seated to the right hand of the Father in His throne, as Jerry has said above herein, then you by default also claim the same Godhead status for yourself if you too are seated in the throne of Messiah with him while he is seated with his Father and our Father in His throne. This may also be critical doctrine for the Mormons because it (erroneously) underscores a path to "godhood" which, no doubt, did not go unnoticed by yourself whether consciously or whether something subconsciously rang all of your alarm bells and whistles. It is error to use such arguments so as to make Yeshua into God Almighty because he promises the same to his disciples in both examples, that is, being "one" as he is one with the Father, and also in the second example being seated with him in his throne as he is seated with his Father and our Father in His throne. Those things do not make Yeshua into God Almighty because, if they do, then they make his disciples also into God Almighty. The Mormons may like this kind of reasoning because it supports their doctrine but it is utterly erroneous in critical thinking:

If we say this mathematically then this is what you and Jerry are saying:

"A" = "God Almighty"
"B" = "Jesus Christ"
"C" = "the disciples of Jesus Christ"

If A = B and B = C then A = C and C = A.

So then by this equation, and by your own estimation, and by the reasoning of Jerry also: the disciple of Yeshua, ("C") is equal to God Almighty, ("A"). This likewise is what gives rise to the rampant self righteous pride which plagues mainstream Christianity because if one claims to have God Almighty dwelling within himself or herself then the same will soon become unwilling to admit that he or she is ever incorrect about anything whatsoever.

 

[Puppet]

You do not have a clue as to my faith Puppet. You would not make a statement like that if you did. Jesus is the flesh son of God, Christ is the spirit son of God. No one can separate the love they have for each other, and no man can separate me from my God or my Lord.

You have some strange ideas.

Your posts gives away plenty of clues about your own invented fake faith.

 

[RevTestament]

You have not understood the point that was being made: just because a disciple can be seated in the throne of Messiah with him, as he says, does not make the disciple God Almighty. Therefore if you say that Yeshua must be God Almighty because he and his Father are one, as most of Trinitarianism does, then you also say that you are God Almighty because you and Messiah are supposed to be "one" in the exact same way that he is "one" with his Father and our Father, (and by the way this concerns some of the function of the office of the Mediator). In the same exact way then, if you say that Yeshua is God Almighty because he is seated to the right hand of the Father in His throne, as Jerry has said above herein, then you by default also claim the same Godhead status for yourself if you too are seated in the throne of Messiah with him while he is seated with his Father and our Father in His throne.

You confuse a promise with actual present tense truth. I have never claimed Jesus is El Elyon, the Most High God. However, there are numerous places in the scriptures which plainly reveal He is the Father's only inheritor. That does not PRESENTLY make Christ El Elyon, His Father. But He is YHWH with the Father - Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail. Have you ever asked yourself why the Father is named such and would share that name with Jesus? and why they are one as Jesus says?

It is error to use such arguments so as to make Yeshua into God Almighty because he promises the same to his disciples in both examples, that is, being "one" as he is one with the Father, and also in the second example being seated with him in his throne as he is seated with his Father and our Father in His throne. Those things do not make Yeshua into God Almighty because, if they do, then they make his disciples also into God Almighty.

You erroneously interpret the scripture and the promise. Promises aren't facts in the present tense.
Only the Father is El Elyon, the Most High El of this world. The kingdom of our Lord is yet to be presented to the Father...

 

[daqq]

You confuse a promise with actual present tense truth. I have never claimed Jesus is El Elyon, the Most High God. However, there are numerous places in the scriptures which plainly reveal He is the Father's only inheritor. That does not PRESENTLY make Christ El Elyon, His Father. But He is YHWH with the Father - Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail. Have you ever asked yourself why the Father is named such and would share that name with Jesus? and why they are one as Jesus says?

You erroneously interpret the scripture and the promise. Promises aren't facts in the present tense.
Only the Father is El Elyon, the Most High El of this world. The kingdom of our Lord is yet to be presented to the Father...

Okay, so you are a little different but not much:
Ask any Trinitarian here if they think the Father and the Son are equal.

 

[RevTestament]

Okay, so you are a little different but not much:

It only takes "a little" difference to be false. Satan is good at introducing "little" differences until all the major points of the gospel and of the godhead are "different" from scripture.
If the Son was "equal" how come the Father tells Him all things before they happen? How come not even He knew the day and hour of his return but the Father only knew? How come the Father did the works the people saw? From where was the source of Jesus' authority and power?
So although in some ways the Son is equal to the Father in that He followed the Father exactly, and was the "legal agent" of the Father, and is YHWH with the Father, He has yet to inherit the kingdoms and mountains of the Father - He is in the process so to speak.

Ask any Trinitarian here if they think the Father and the Son are equal.

That is not the standard by which to interpret scripture. The doctrine of the trinity contains truth but like so many things influenced by Satan, it also contains unscriptural aspects, which is why I do not follow the creeds later developed in the Roman state church.
I merely am "untweeking" the many tweeks made to the scriptures and put into creeds in order to demystify the Godhead.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

No matter how hard you try to pervert what is said in the 22nd chapter of the Revelation these facts remain:

The following verse is speaking of only "one" throne:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

Here is what John saw and heard while he was at that throne, the throne of God and of the Lamb:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

Here we read the one on the throne saying, "I will be his God." This is God speaking and since there can only be ONE who is the beginning and the end and the Alpha and the Omega, then it cannot be denied that the one speaking is Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

These are the words of the Lord Jesus because He is the one who says, "I come quickly" (Rev.22:20).

There is only "One" on the Throne of God and the Lamb, and that proves that the Lord Jesus is God--the Alpha and Omega and the Beginning and the End.

So who is sitting on the Throne before Jesus is presented to Him?

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.



Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


LA

No answer Jerry,

You must bow to scripture or be found to be doing your own thing without Christ.

LA

 

[daqq]

It only takes "a little" difference to be false. Satan is good at introducing "little" differences until all the major points of the gospel and of the godhead are "different" from scripture.
If the Son was "equal" how come the Father tells Him all things before they happen? How come not even He knew the day and hour of his return but the Father only knew? How come the Father did the works the people saw? From where was the source of Jesus' authority and power?
So although in some ways the Son is equal to the Father in that He followed the Father exactly, and was the "legal agent" of the Father, and is YHWH with the Father, He has yet to inherit the kingdoms and mountains of the Father - He is in the process so to speak.

That is not the standard by which to interpret scripture. The doctrine of the trinity contains truth but like so many things influenced by Satan, it also contains unscriptural aspects, which is why I do not follow the creeds later developed in the Roman state church.
I merely am "untweeking" the many tweeks made to the scriptures and put into creeds in order to demystify the Godhead.

I was still speaking toward the point which I made to Jerry before you interjected yourself. Jerry is clearly some form of Trinitarian or Oneness adherent who does indeed believe that the Father and the Son are co-equal, (if not the same "person") which is clearly evident by his doctrine in his post which I responded to just before you responded to me. You are now going off into your own tangents which have no impact on what I wrote in response to Jerry's post about the throne/thrones. Interpret Scripture by whatever standard you feel is right but what is that to me? I use Scripture to interpret Scripture so if you post something that I know is untrue then I will post the Scripture which shows your error if I feel so led to do so. It really does not matter what you post to begin with, or what the topic may be, but here Jerry tried to make his point with the throne of God and I gave two examples from Scripture and a mathematical expression of his thinking, (to you because he did not respond and still has not as LA has noted :wave which show that Jerry's thinking is erroneous.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So who is sitting on the Throne before Jesus is presented to Him?

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Here the Lord is portrayed as "Son of Man" and not as Son of God. Here He is seen as being a Servant.

But later He will be seen as God because it is Him who will be sitting on the One Throne, The Throne of God and of the Lamb.

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

If there is two sitting on the Throne of God and of the Lamb we would not hear anything about His servants serving "Him."

If there were two on the Throne of God and of the Lamb then we would read about His servants serving "Them."

But that is not what is said, is it?

We can also understand that this verse also reveals that there is only "One" who sits upon the same throne:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful" (Rev.21:5).​

Now a simple question for you. Do you think that there can be more than one who can describe themselves as the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your perversion is the same as when you say that Yeshua being one with the Father makes him God Almighty while ignoring the fact that he prays that we may all be one with him just as he is one with the Father.

Again, this is speaking of the Lord Jesus and indeed He is the Almighty:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:7-8).​

Of course this is the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev.1:2) and since there can only be One who can be called the Alpha and the Omega and the beginning and the end we can know that the coming one is the Lord Jesus:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

You pervert this:

John 10:29-30 KJV
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Of course when the Lord Jesus said that the Father was greater than all, especially considering the fact asto how the Lord Jesus was made:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).​

However, we also know that the LORD said this:

"For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another" (Isa.48:11).

And then later the Lord Jesus was given that glory, proving that He is God:

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (Jn.17:5).​

Since the LORD will not give His glory to another but he did give it to the Lord Jesus then we can know that the Lord Jesus is God. The LORD obviously does not consider the Lord Jesus to be in the category of "another."