No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Right Divider]

@JudgeRightly
Talking to b57 is like to talking to a brick wall... with the exception that the brick wall will not say idiotic things.

 

[beloved57]

YOU SAID:



That's a change from "natural man" to "spiritually alive man" which you say is caused by the drawing:



So don't lie, B57.

Now, chapter verse that says that the Father's calling (aka "drawing") of someone changes them into a new creature.



Show chapter verse where that causes one to become spiritually alive.



He can after the Father calls/draws him, John 6:44, 65.



No, it's not.

It's talking about after someone is a believer.



AGAIN, it's talking about AFTER someone is saved.



Drawing/impelling someone doesn't mean compelled to follow.



The verse does not say that people will be "made willing."

Try again.



Not by compelling them, but by drawing them.

Not a guarantee that they will.

Also, this is speaking of people who already follow God, not of unbelievers.

The drawing is indicative of the Power of God working inwardly. Credit goes to the Divine Power which causes a man to believe in Christ, otherwise naturally man cannot come or believe in Christ, hence eliminates the false teaching of man coming to Christ by his own freewill. Mans will naturally is spiritually dead as he is, and under the slavery to sin.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The drawing is indicative of the Power of God working inwardly.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

The point is that just because someone is called, drawn, is being worked on inwardly, that is NOT a guarantee (as you claim) that someone is saved/regenerated/etc.

Credit goes to the Divine Power which causes a man to believe in Christ,

Chapter verse which says that "divine power" causes someone to believe, as opposed to only giving them the ability to believe.

otherwise naturally man cannot come or believe in Christ,

Man CAN come to Christ AFTER the Father has called him, as per John 6:44, 65.

hence eliminates the false teaching of man coming to Christ by his own freewill.

No one has said that man can come to God before being called.

What I have been trying to get you to acknowledge is that scripture teaches that if the Father HAS called someone, they CAN come (though it is no guarantee that they will come).

Mans will naturally is spiritually dead as he is, and under the slavery to sin.

Chapter verse which says that being spiritually dead OR under slavery to sin means that one CANNOT acknowledge that they are spiritually dead or under slavery to sin.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Credit goes to the Divine Power

No, Credit for salvation ALWAYS goes to God.

Credit for REJECTING God, for rejecting salvation, goes to the one who rejects it.

 

[beloved57]

Irrelevant to this discussion.

The point is that just because someone is called, drawn, is being worked on inwardly, that is NOT a guarantee (as you claim) that someone is saved/regenerated/etc.



Chapter verse which says that "divine power" causes someone to believe, as opposed to only giving them the ability to believe.



Man CAN come to Christ AFTER the Father has called him, as per John 6:44, 65.



No one has said that man can come to God before being called.

What I have been trying to get you to acknowledge is that scripture teaches that if the Father HAS called someone, they CAN come (though it is no guarantee that they will come).



Chapter verse which says that being spiritually dead OR under slavery to sin means that one CANNOT acknowledge that they are spiritually dead or under slavery to sin.

No its very relevant. The natural man cannot come/believe in Christ, it takes a Sovereign intervention of the Power of God for a man to do so. Thats New Birth

 

[beloved57]

No, Credit for salvation ALWAYS goes to God.

Credit for REJECTING God, for rejecting salvation, goes to the one who rejects it.

Oh Yes God gets all the Credit for a person believing in Christ ! If wasnt for Sovereign intervention, man could not believe in Christ, that destroys the lie of mans freewill in Salvation.

 

[Right Divider]

No its very relevant. The natural man cannot come/believe in Christ, it takes a Sovereign intervention of the Power of God for a man to do so. Thats New Birth

Nope... pure fantasy on your part.

 

[Right Divider]

Oh Yes God gets all the Credit for a person believing in Christ ! If wasnt for Sovereign intervention, man could not believe in Christ, that destroys the lie of mans freewill in Salvation.

You continue to use a FALSE definition of sovereignty.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No its very relevant.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The natural man cannot come/believe in Christ,

Can he do so (or even can he refuse to do so) after the Father calls/draws him?

it takes a Sovereign intervention of the Power of God for a man to do so.

So you now agree that man CAN come to Christ after the Father calls him, as per John 6:44, 65?

That's New Birth.

Chapter verse that says that when God calls/draws someone, that that is "new birth."

 

[JudgeRightly]

Oh Yes God gets all the Credit for a person believing in Christ! If wasnt for Sovereign intervention, man could not believe in Christ, that destroys the lie of mans freewill in Salvation.

The problem is that you also claim that the credit for a man REJECTING God ALSO goes to God.

Which is false. God is not responsible for when someone rejects Him.

 

[beloved57]

Nope... pure fantasy on your part.

Fantasy on your part !

 

[beloved57]

You continue to use a FALSE definition of sovereignty.

In your imagination.

 

[beloved57]

Saying it doesn't make it so.



Can he do so (or even can he refuse to do so) after the Father calls/draws him?



So you now agree that man CAN come to Christ after the Father calls him, as per John 6:44, 65?



Chapter verse that says that when God calls/draws someone, that that is "new birth."

Its plain, The natural man cannot come to Christ, believe on Him. It takes a Divine Intervention of the Power of God, which is the New Birth.

 

[beloved57]

The problem is that you also claim that the credit for a man REJECTING God ALSO goes to God.

Which is false. God is not responsible for when someone rejects Him.

You dont understand God gets the praise for a person believing in Christ. Its by His Gracious Power a person believes.

 

[Clete]

I personally don't believe in free-will because it is nowhere in the Bible.

Who says? You?

My bible is replete with free will from beginning to end!

Here's just three of the more obvious examples....

See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways…then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live…(Duet 30:15-19).

If a man is righteous and does what is lawful and right….he shall surely live, says the Lord GOD….The person who sins shall die….But if the wicked turn away from all their sins…they shall surely live; they shall not die. (Ezekiel 18 - the whole chapter)

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live?… Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord GOD. Turn, then, and live. (Ezek. 18:5,9, 20, 23, 31-32).

What is your definition of free-will?

The ability to exercise volition. The ability to choose to do or to do otherwise. (see Moral Responsibility and the Principle of Alternative Possibilities)

The term "free will" is actually redundant. If you are not free you have no will.

 

[Hilltrot]

Who says? You?

The Bible does.

Very simple. Find the word "free-will" in the Bible. You just need a single clear instance of that exact word.

So far, you have provided none. Bluster doesn't count.

The ability to exercise volition. The ability to choose to do or to do otherwise. (see Moral Responsibility and the Principle of Alternative Possibilities)

Yep, that's definitely Greek philosophy.

At least you gave a definition.

"The ability to exercise an act of making a choice or decision." Replaced volition with the common English.

I don't think humans always have that ability and when they do have that ability, it is very limited.

The term "free will" is actually redundant. If you are not free you have no will.

The person I was responding to did not say there was no difference between a "will" and "free-will". In fact most Calvinists I have read have specifically distinguished between the two. Martin Luther also distinguished between the two.

 

[oatmeal]

Those who believe had been chosen/ ordained to eternal life previously by God Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Yes, and God knows who they are, because He foreknows who will choose to believe!

That is why people need to believe as John 3:16 makes clear

... that whosoever believes on him shall not perish.....

whosoever chooses to believe are those that God chooses

 

[JudgeRightly]

The Bible does.

Very simple. Find the word "free-will" in the Bible. You just need a single clear instance of that exact word.

Here's three instances:

“Speak to Aaron and his sons, and to all the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘Whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, who offers his sacrifice for any of his vows or for any of his freewill offerings, which they offer to the Lord as a burnt offering— . . . And whoever offers a sacrifice of a peace offering to the Lord, to fulfill his vow, or a freewill offering from the cattle or the sheep, it must be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no defect in it. . . . Either a bull or a lamb that has any limb too long or too short you may offer as a freewill offering, but for a vow it shall not be accepted. - Leviticus 22:18,21,23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus22:18,21,23&version=NKJV

So far, you have provided none. Bluster doesn't count.

Yep, that's definitely Greek philosophy.

At least you gave a definition.

"The ability to exercise an act of making a choice or decision." Replaced volition with the common English.

I don't think humans always have that ability and when they do have that ability, it is very limited.

The person I was responding to did not say there was no difference between a "will" and "free-will". In fact most Calvinists I have read have specifically distinguished between the two. Martin Luther also distinguished between the two.

 

[Hilltrot]

Here's three instances:

“Speak to Aaron and his sons, and to all the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘Whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, who offers his sacrifice for any of his vows or for any of his freewill offerings, which they offer to the Lord as a burnt offering— . . . And whoever offers a sacrifice of a peace offering to the Lord, to fulfill his vow, or a freewill offering from the cattle or the sheep, it must be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no defect in it. . . . Either a bull or a lamb that has any limb too long or too short you may offer as a freewill offering, but for a vow it shall not be accepted. - Leviticus 22:18,21,23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus22:18,21,23&version=NKJV

Yeah, I forgot that one. I'm not a big fan of the KJV or its progeny, but I've got to give it to you - it does use the word "freewill".

That being said "freewill offering" is actually the word translation of "nedabah". Now I'm no Hebrew expert, but from what I can understand, there is no root of this word which means freewill. "Nedabah" is just a different kind of offering - one is not required by the law. This would mean that the word "freewill" was really just the KJV translators taking liberties and not a reference to metaphysics or a specific Hebrew word meaning freewill.

If you could show otherwise, it would definitely be a set of powerful verses to use against Lutheranism/Calvinism.

 

[beloved57]

Yes, and God knows who they are, because He foreknows who will choose to believe!

That is why people need to believe as John 3:16 makes clear

... that whosoever believes on him shall not perish.....

whosoever chooses to believe are those that God chooses

He knows who will believe because He determined they would believe , He had determined they would have eternal life.