He is not good enough. Peyton Manning is an all time great, and he isn't good enough either.
NFL 2017
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
He is not good enough. Peyton Manning is an all time great, and he isn't good enough either.
As much as it pains me, that's right. You know, I think Peyton got something in the back of his head while he was playing for the Vols and he never really got over it. If he played in the post season (and until he was broken his numbers there were as solid as Brady's) the way he played in the regular season he'd have been the argument.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Staubach not good enough! Did you ever see him play? He had a dimension that none of the other great quarterbacks had and that was why he was called Roger the Dodger. I have never seen anyone deflate defenses as he did by his ability to scramble. Not only that, but when he retired he held the highest passer rating of all time. Combine the two and no quarterback has ever matched his skills.
Besides that, he was the original Captain Comeback and Captain America. If he hadn't served the country in the Navy and in Vietnam there would have been no limit to the records he would have set. And as a leader his players would have followed him to hell.
Not good enough for me to consider with one game to play. I also excluded Manning. If you let Elway play under Shannahan when he was 28 for a season with Kubiak calling plays, then I might let Elway play that one game. Sorry, not Roger whom is an all time great.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Montana was a great system quarterback and in his final three Super Bowl wins he had as a receiver one player who is called the best player in NFL history by many people, Jerry Rice. But Montana did not have the skill set of Staubach nor the great leadership of Staubach.
Give Staubach a receiver like Jerry Rice and he wins the NFL championship every year he plays.
Staubach had one of the greatest coaches in history, and a disciple of Paul Brown. The answer remains no. For the record, Favre is Hall of Fame, and I don't put him in that group either. I put quite a few before Favre in recent history.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, Tom Landry invented the 4-3 defense and then it became the Flex Defense. However, that does not take away anything from the skills and leadership possessed by Staubach. No one can touch him in that regard. If I had to choose a quarterback to win a big game I would pick Staubach.
What about the first Super Bowl? How many yards did Rice, Taylor, and Craig have?
Nick already burst that bubble, but I'd add to it that even broken down he was pretty darn good for the Chiefs and he beat Steve Young and that SB winning cast with the lesser Chiefs, head to head.
How many rings, from how many post-seasons, in how many "valid" seasons played (seasons not somehow invalidated, by injury, or by otherwise not being the starter). X-for-Y-in-Z seasons played. Graham played 10 seasons and 10 championship games, and won 7 quote-unquote rings. So his numbers are 7-for-10-in-10, the gold standard for this particular metric.
Graham 7-for-10-in-10
Bart Starr 5-for-6-in-12 (counting from when Lombardi made him the sole starter)
Montana 4-for-10-in-13 (excl. '86 for injury). With SF, Montana was 4-for-8-in-11 ('86 excluded for injury).
Brady 5-for-14-in-15.
Bradshaw 4-for-9-in-12
Brady's conversion percentage of post-season appearances into championships is significantly behind these other qbs.
Graham 7-for-10-in-10
Bart Starr 5-for-6-in-12 (counting from when Lombardi made him the sole starter)
Montana 4-for-10-in-13 (excl. '86 for injury). With SF, Montana was 4-for-8-in-11 ('86 excluded for injury).
Brady 5-for-14-in-15.
Bradshaw 4-for-9-in-12
Brady's conversion percentage of post-season appearances into championships is significantly behind these other qbs.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, going by that Graham had the best championship record of any quarterback. I never saw him play so I couldn't say whether or not I would choose him as my quarterback for one big important game.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I don't see that!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
He shouldn't have even been in that Super Bowl. "The catch" was just a fluke!
Stop squinting. Look at the roster for Joe's first ring. And then remember what I noted about a declining Joe taking a lesser Chiefs team and beating HOF and future SB winning Steve Young with Rice and company.
What did Young have to say afterward? "I learned from Joe, from the master. Today the master had a little more to teach the student."
Montana's first year in a new system with the Chief's he went 11-5 and took the AFC West, advancing to the AFC Championship game, where they lost to the Bills after Montana left the game 3 plays into the third quarter following a concussion.
The next year, Joe's last, he beat that Niners team again in route to a more modest 9 win season. He threw for over 3,200 yds and lost in the first round of the playoffs to Miami, despite putting up over 300 yds and a 70% completion, with his last game rating coming in at 102.8
It had been that kind of frustrating year, with Allen in decline as a primary option and the team less effective defensively. Montana had watched his team squander three 300+ yard games during the regular season that should have put them at 12 wins. One of those losses was to Miami, a foreshadowing as he threw for the same total in both losses.
Tom Brady is the fluke.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"In 1971 Roger Staubach notched a season passer rating of 104.8 when the NFL average for qualified passers was 62.2. In percent, Staubach was 68% better than the league average, the best value achieved by any quarterback in the Super Bowl era."
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2010/6/9/1503000/peerless-passers-roger-staubach
In fact, Staubach was the best in that category for four years and Montana only two. When Staubach retired he had the best passer rating of any quarterback in NFL history.
Besides that, he had a skill which Montana never even dreamed of matching, and that skill was his ability to scramble. He rushed for 2,264 yards during his tenure in Dallas and scored 20 rushing TD's. Also, he had a regular season winning percentage of .746 compared to Montana's .713.
If Staubach and Montana were the choices to be the quarterback for the same team I would pick Staubach every time. He would win more games with that team than Montana would win with the same team.
Case closed!
Graham 7-for-10-in-10
Bart Starr 5-for-6-in-12
Montana 4-for-10-in-13
Brady 5-for-14-in-15
Bradshaw 4-for-9-in-12
QBs with 4 or more rings, and their postseasons-to-championship wins fractions:
a. Starr 0.833
b. Graham 0.700
c. Bradshaw 0.444
d. Montana 0.400 (0.500 w/ SF)*
e. Brady 0.357
Charts:
a. lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
b. llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
c. llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
d. llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll(llllllllll)*
e. lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
My point is Brady's not a fluke, he's not in the top four here. There're more QBs with more championships if you go back far enough too, but 1933 is as far back as the modern forward pass goes I think, before then it's a wildly different game.
I'm more interested in their individual play in the post season and their play in the big games. Starr and Graham had fewer games to play to get to a single elimination championship game (mostly 12 game seasons). Given the limited field it presented a much easier path to a Championship than Montana had.
Graham played 126 games for 174 tds to 135 picks and a career rating of 86.6
Montana played 192 games for 244 tds to 123 picks in SF, with a carer rating of 93.5
In the playoffs?
Graham played in 12 playoff games for 14 tds and 17 picks, with a playoff rating of 67.4
Montana played in 23 playoff games for 45 tds and 21 picks, with a playoff rating of 95.6