NFL 2016

[Town Heretic]

It's NOLL, not "Knoll".

Meh, phonetics. I can't spell Siefert either...and I don't care sufficiently to course correct. Suffice to say you understood the point.

You would think that when a coach wins four Super Bowls people would know how to spell his name.

Why would you think that? I haven't thought much about him since...

Anyways, Jerry Jones almost gave the Steelers Super Bowl XXX. Despite that great team the Cowboys had (that Jimmy Johnson built), the Steelers had the ball, were down 3 points, and were at midfield before Neil O'Donnell threw an interception.

Switzer, Jerry, and the Boys came very, very close to blowing it.

Johnson wasn't Switzer. So, the distinction you made is arguably owed in part to the enormity of Jones' ego and bumbling with a great coach.

 

[tetelestai]

That Cowboy's team in the 90's could have been the greatest team ever.

Think about it.......a coach wins back-to-back Super Bowls, then gets fired.

 

[tetelestai]

For the record:

The 3 coaches who won a major college football championship and a Super Bowl:

1) Jimmy Johnson
2) Barry Switzer****
3) Pete Carroll

**** couldn't have done it without #1

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Steelers own the Cowboys because they are 2-1 against them in Super Bowl's.

They didn't own the Boys the last time they played together in a Super Bowl.

They didn't own them this year because the Boys beat the Steelers in that game.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That Cowboy's team in the 90's could have been the greatest team ever.

Yes, and the other teams in the NFL didn't want that to happen so they got together and brought in free agency in order to break up the Boys.

They had to cheat in order to bring the Boys down to their level!

 

[tetelestai]

They didn't own the Boys the last time they played together in a Super Bowl.

They didn't own them this year because the Boys beat the Steelers in that game.

Jerry, I know you're excited because your Boys are going to the playoffs this year.

Considering, the Cowboys have been irrelevant the last 20 years (they only have won 2 playoff games since 1996), you might want to lay low with the trash talk until your Cowboys actually win a playoff game.

The one thing you and I would both agree on is we would both like to see another Steelers/Cowboys Super Bowl.

 

[tetelestai]

Yes, and the other teams in the NFL didn't want that to happen so they got together and brought in free agency in order to break up the Boys.

They had to cheat in order to bring the Boys down to their level!

No, Plan B didn't bring down the Boys, it was Jerry Jones.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm 52 years old, there is no one else my age that has experienced as much winning, for any other team, other than I have with the Steelers.

You brag a lot about the fact that the Steelers have the highest winning percentage since the merger! However, the teams other than the Steelers in your division have only won two Super Bowls and have made an appearance in the Super Bowl only five times.

On the other hand, the teams other than the Cowboys in our division have won seven Super Bowls and have made twelve Super Bowl appearances.

No wonder the Steelers have the best winning percentage since the merger. And during the 46 years since the merger they have only won 18 more games than the Cowboys. That's less than a half a game a year.

If Dallas had been playing in your sorry division and Pittsburg had been playing in Dallas' division, the best division in the NFL, then Dallas would have had the highest winning percentage by far.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, Plan B didn't bring down the Boys, it was Jerry Jones.

Here are just some of the players which Dallas lost from their 1992 Super Bowl team because of free agency:

All Pro Linebacker Ken Norton Jr.
All Pro Center Mark Stepnoski
Receiver Alvin Harper
Safety James Washington
Defensive End Jim Jeffcoat

 

[Nihilo]

Yes, Brady is a great Quarterback, maybe the best to ever play in the NFL.

Meh. The exciting thing for fans of QBs and NE alike, is that he looks like he's got years left in the tank. It should be fun to watch him for good long while. And of course, he's only going to build upon what's he's already done.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Meh. The exciting thing for fans of QBs and NE alike, is that he looks like he's got years left in the tank. It should be fun to watch him for good long while. And of course, he's only going to build upon what's he's already done.

What i like about Brady is that he is able to produce, no matter who his receivers are. I wonder just how effective Joe Montana would have been if he didn't have Jerry Rice to throw to all those years?

I thought that Roger Staubach was the greatest quarterback of all time, especially since he was such a great leader. He did win two Super Bowls and might have won two more if it were not for the fact that he lost those two to the great, great defenses of the Steelers (there are now four Hall of Famers from that defensive team).

But I now think that Brady is also a great leader and he might also end up with more Super Bowl victories than any quarterback in history. Therefore, it would be difficult to deny his place in NFL history as the greatest quarterback of all time.

 

[Town Heretic]

What i like about Brady is that he is able to produce, no matter who his receivers are. I wonder just how effective Joe Montana would have been if he didn't have Jerry Rice to throw to all those years?

Well...he did win his first Super Bowl without Rice. The year before Rice arrived Joe threw for 3,630 (his 4th best) over eight yards a throw (his 2nd best) on average, for 28 tds (his second highest) against 10 ints (his 6th best year) and a quarterback rating over 100 (his 3rd best)...so I'm guessing he'd have been all right. And unlike Brady, he won every time he made the contest and never threw an int in the big game...no one is going to top that, in my opinion.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Well...he did win his first Super Bowl without Rice. The year before Rice arrived Joe threw for 3,630 (his 4th best) over eight yards a throw (his 2nd best) on average, for 28 tds (his second highest) against 10 ints (his 6th best year) and a quarterback rating over 100 (his 3rd best)...so I'm guessing he'd have been all right. And unlike Brady, he won every time he made the contest and never threw an int in the big game...no one is going to top that, in my opinion.

Good points!

However, I think that when Montana won his first Super Bowl the west coast offense was relatively new and the coaches had not yet figured out how to defend it. I do not think that as time went on he would have continued to win Super Bowls without Jerry Rice.

 

[Town Heretic]

Good points!

However, I think that when Montana won his first Super Bowl the west coast offense was relatively new and the coaches had not yet figured out how to defend it. I do not think that as time went on he would have continued to win Super Bowls without Jerry Rice.

New? Paul Brown started it years before it was honed in SF. It wasn't magic. It simply required precision and the right sort of players, which Walsh and company made sure they got.

That said, if you examine his record as a qb prior , from college into the pros, and even his later, physically broken period, without Rice for a couple of years at KC, you'll have a really hard time supporting your thesis. Also, keep in mind as I noted somewhere that he did this when the rules were far friendlier to defenses and far harder on QBs and his targets. That's why records started falling left and right in the fairly recent portion of the modern era and why, in no small part, the stats are so gaudy.

Joe, like most qbs who win that much, that often, had a great coach and excellent skill positions players. They were imposing on offense, and imposing on defense.

The modern qb has it much easier. And if you're talking Brady, who I think is one of the best to play the position, the record is a bit deceptive. He got to and won the three rings that began the conversation of his ascendancy on the strength of the best clutch kicker in the history of the game. Take Adam out of the math and I'm not sure Tom gets to, let alone wins the first three rings.

Brady became closer to a Montana figure after that stretch. Even so, he took a couple of the best offenses in the history of the game, by production, into the Super Bowl and came up short. . . Joe didn't.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Brady became closer to a Montana figure after that stretch. Even so, he took a couple of the best offenses in the history of the game, by production, into the Super Bowl and came up short. . . Joe didn't.

You make a whole lot of good points, points which I cannot answer.

If Brady ends up winning five Super Bowls or more then would you think that he is the greatest of all time?

Thanks!

 

[john w]

The Cowboys are done, for this year-put a fork in them-I am looking forward to the draft.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Cowboys are done, for this year-put a fork in them-I am looking forward to the draft.

Not so fast, john w.

If Dak loses the next two games then the Boys might replace him with Romo.

And that changes everything!

 

[Town Heretic]

You make a whole lot of good points, points which I cannot answer.

If Brady ends up winning five Super Bowls or more then would you think that he is the greatest of all time?

Thanks!

I think four for four is more impressive. If getting there was the yardstick the Bills would be in the running for greatest team of all time, having done the near impossible in making four straight SBs. And I believe that records and ratings were much harder to come by in Joe's day. Also, if they hadn't traded Montana to keep a younger and great but impatient Steve Young (which given the lateness of the hour for Joe made sense) there's no real reason not to believe Joe would be 5-0 in SBs.

And I missed one earlier. Two for the four SB rings Joe has were earned without Rice. He won two more with Rice, then Young won one with Young.

Two rings more than answers the "How instrumental was Rice to Montana's success" question. He won as many without him. Now how many times did Brady go to the SB without Vinatieri and win? And again, the greatest qb of all time doesn't take the most potent offense of its day into the SB and lose. Twice.

In 2007 he'd thrown for 50 tds against 8 ints with a 117 qb rating. Only three teams held opponents to lower scores that year than the Pats, so it wasn't just a terrific offense. And that undefeated team's offense scored 589 pts that year. Second place? Dallas, with 455.

I don't know that Montana ever operated with that differential. And Brady lost.

In 2012 Brady took the best offense and a top ten defense into round two with the Giants. The Giants had scored 392 pts and given up 400 that year. The Pats had scored 513 and given up 342 pts. Brady's team went home with another loss.

That said, he put on one of the best performances I've seen in that win against Seattle. His team was lucky, but Brady was special that day. He's special more days than not.


Brady's great play over time (and counting) merits putting him in the conversation and a special status, but it's Joe and then the rest the way it's Jim Brown (with a nod to Barry Sanders) and then the rest.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

-DELETED-

 

[Nihilo]

Brady is a great Quarterback, maybe the best to ever play in the NFL.

Meh. The exciting thing for fans of QBs and NE alike, is that he looks like he's got years left in the tank. It should be fun to watch him for good long while. And of course, he's only going to build upon what's he's already done.

What i like about Brady is that he is able to produce, no matter who his receivers are. I wonder just how effective Joe Montana would have been if he didn't have Jerry Rice to throw to all those years?

Montana lost his fair share of playoff games and missed the playoffs entirely occasionally. He lost the NFC championship a couple times. Threw quite a few interceptions too.

But I now think that Brady is also a great leader and he might also end up with more Super Bowl victories than any quarterback in history. Therefore, it would be difficult to deny his place in NFL history as the greatest quarterback of all time.

It would be difficult for many but probably not most, since most of those who are not already huge Brady fans, are probably never going to be won over, since they all hold various things against Brady that Brady can never make up for. Even if Brady were to win the next five or six consecutive SBs, throwing six or less picks per season, I doubt very much that Town for instance would yield on Montana being Brady's better. :idunno: Past sins.