Never Believed Jesus Loved/Died For Only Some People & Not All? Then Never Been Saved

7djengo7

7djengo7

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Never Believed Jesus Loved/Died For Only Some People & Not All? Then Never Been Saved

Since the gospel is that Jesus never loved, and never died for some portion--perhaps the vast majority--of mankind, then, if you have never believed that Jesus never loved/died for those people, you've never believed the gospel, and thus, you have never been saved.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
7djengo7 said:
Since the gospel is that Jesus never loved, and never died for some portion--perhaps the vast majority--of mankind, then, if you have never believed that Jesus never loved/died for those people, you've never believed the gospel, and thus, you have never been saved.
Click to expand...

Is there a difference between saying that and saying that all those for whom Christ died will be saved?
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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7djengo7 said:
Since the gospel is that Jesus never loved, and never died for some portion--perhaps the vast majority--of mankind, then, if you have never believed that Jesus never loved/died for those people, you've never believed the gospel, and thus, you have never been saved.
Click to expand...
1 John 2:2 New Living Translation (NLT)
2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Bright Raven said:
1 John 2:2 New Living Translation (NLT)
2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
Click to expand...

Which leaves 3 options :

1. Atonement doesn't necessarily translate to salvation
2. The whole world here is indicating that Jesus is not only the Messiah for Israel
3. Universal salvation

The only thing I would say to the first point is that if that's true, then it isn't consistent with the OT sacrifices. It exhaustively details how the sacrifice is to be prepared, how the altar is to be prepared and how the sacrifice is to be given. Nowhere does it depend (that I know of) on the people for whom it is given. And that, I think, is the context here. The sacrifices which prefigured Christ were found in Israel - so there had to be clarification if that was going to be understood to apply to those who were "strangers".
 
7djengo7

7djengo7

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nikolai_42 said:
Is there a difference between saying that and saying that all those for whom Christ died will be saved?
Click to expand...

Difference between saying what and saying that all those for whom Christ died will be saved?

Here is what I wrote:

Since the gospel is that Jesus never loved, and never died for some portion--perhaps the vast majority--of mankind, then, if you have never believed that Jesus never loved/died for those people, you've never believed the gospel, and thus, you have never been saved.
Click to expand...

What I wrote is two propositions:

1. The gospel is that Jesus never loved, never died for some...
2. Those who have never believed that Jesus never loved, never died for some...are persons who have never been saved.

And, though I did not write them, though I didn't explicitly state them, two other propositions are implicitly connected with those two:

3. All persons who have never believed that Jesus never loved, never died for some...are persons who have never believed the gospel,

and

4. All persons who have never believed the gospel have never been saved.

At the very least, the fact that what I wrote is an argument--a construct of multiple propositions--whereas, what you wrote ("all those for whom Christ died will be saved") is a single proposition, necessitates that, indeed, in answer to your question, there is much difference between what you wrote and what I wrote. A proposition is either true or false, whereas an argument is neither true nor false. The propositions of which the argument is constructed, of course, are, respectively, either true or false. But not so the argument, itself. Arguments, rather than being true or false, are valid or invalid.

Further, affirming the proposition that all those for whom Christ died shall be saved is, indeed, also not even the same as affirming that there are persons for whom Christ never died.

I would say to you, as an aside, that I have learned just about all I've learned about logic and necessary entailment (and I realize there is so much more to learn, and to try to grasp) from reading literature written by the late Dr. Gordon H. Clark, and listening to MP3 audios by his friend, the late Dr. John W. Robbins. Both those guys happened to be Calvinists--Presbyterians--but were great scholars, with great insights in lots of areas. Perhaps you have heard of them. I highly recommend to you Clark's book on Logic, among other great things he wrote, and Robbins' MP3 series on Logic, as well as several other of his audio lecture series that are available on the Trinity Foundation website. I intend to eventually try to learn more and more from those guys' material--as much as I can slowly, gradually absorb, anyway. Very unique scholars, very valuable output. Very confused, indeed, and necessarily so, insofar as they spoke trying to defend Calvinism. But, really, that's a whole other subject, and I take what seems good and edifying from whoever's dishing it up, while I, of course, can just as easily refuse what I consider to be erroneous. Look them up, if you're interested in trying to learn and understand the subject of logic, not to mention, apologetics, history of philosophy, etc.! Spend time with their materials. You won't regret it!

Possibly Professor Stonewaller--I mean Ask Mr. Religion--is familiar with Clark and Robbins, and has read, assimilated, and memorized all their many books and articles by now!
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Christ stated specifically for whom He died, His Sheep Jn 10:11,15

And all men arent His sheep Jn 10:26 so its no basis scripturally to say Christ loved them or died for them.
 
7djengo7

7djengo7

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beloved57 said:
Christ stated specifically for whom He died, His Sheep Jn 10:11,15

And all men arent His sheep Jn 10:26 so its no basis scripturally to say Christ loved them or died for them.
Click to expand...

Well, what you wrote, here, is completely irrelevant to this thread, but, I'm more than happy to question you about what you did write.

In John 10:26, Jesus said to some Jews,

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Click to expand...

Jesus, in John 10:26, stated the cause of the unbelief of the Jews to whom He was speaking: that they were not of His sheep. But, Saul of Tarsus was also a Jew (and, who's to say he was not one of the very Jews to whom Christ was speaking in that passage?), and also was not a believer in Christ, so what, exactly, would you say was the cause of Saul's unbelief? We know that the Apostle Paul was one of Christ's sheep, but what about Saul of Tarsus? Was Saul of Tarsus--a man who did not believe--one of Christ's sheep, or not? If Saul of Tarsus was one of Christ's sheep, then what caused Saul of Tarsus to not believe?

In v. 27, Jesus said

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
Click to expand...

But Saul of Tarsus, through all his life prior to Christ's appearance to him on his way to Damascus, was not hearing Christ's voice, and was not following Christ, so, according to Christ's words in v. 27, Saul of Tarsus must not have been one of Christ's sheep, whereas the Apostle Paul, indeed, was one of Christ's sheep.

Or, if you wish to say that Saul of Tarsus, in his unbelief, in his not hearing Christ's voice, in his not following Christ, in his murdering of Christ's followers, was, indeed, one of Christ's sheep, then, with sheep like that, what use has Christ for goats?
 
S

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
Maybe this revelations will help you understand.

ALL ALLMOST NEVER MEANS ALL (IN THE CARNAL SENSE)
Matt 5:14-16
14 "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 "Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
Matt 6:33-34
33 "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
34 "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
John 5:36
36 "But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish-- the very works that I do-- bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
John 6:39
39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 18:11
11 Then Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?"
Heb 2:13
13 And again: "I will put My trust in Him." And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me."
John 6:44-48
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
48 "I am the bread of life.
John 6:65-69
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
John 17:1-2
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
John 17:6-7
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
John 17:10-12
10 "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
(NKJ)

XXX All is a figure of speech. We can see that to Jesus all was all those that God had given Him. Which is all those who become Christians and are born again. All those that follow Jesus' example. All does mean all some times.


Acts 2:47
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Mark 10:45
45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
John 17:12
12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 13:1
1 Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.
1Thes 3:11-13
11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you.
12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you,
13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Acts 2:39
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
John 6:37-40
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
(NKJ)

Mark 10:45
45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
(NKJ)

1 Tim 2:5-6
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
(NKJ)

John 6:39-40
39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
(NKJ)
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
nikolai_42 said:
Which leaves 3 options :

1. Atonement doesn't necessarily translate to salvation
2. The whole world here is indicating that Jesus is not only the Messiah for Israel
3. Universal salvation

The only thing I would say to the first point is that if that's true, then it isn't consistent with the OT sacrifices. It exhaustively details how the sacrifice is to be prepared, how the altar is to be prepared and how the sacrifice is to be given. Nowhere does it depend (that I know of) on the people for whom it is given. And that, I think, is the context here. The sacrifices which prefigured Christ were found in Israel - so there had to be clarification if that was going to be understood to apply to those who were "strangers".
Click to expand...

Jesus is the Savior of the world, for those who were alive on earth when he came, and for all who had died before his coming, who were in prison/hell; then he went to heaven, and all those who will be born and who will believe and obey him will be saved. Jesus is the Savior of the world for all. He filled the whole universe.

Faith that is not dead is the way to enter salvation, and it is to all.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
7djengo7 said:
Well, what you wrote, here, is completely irrelevant to this thread, but, I'm more than happy to question you about what you did write.

In John 10:26, Jesus said to some Jews,



Jesus, in John 10:26, stated the cause of the unbelief of the Jews to whom He was speaking: that they were not of His sheep. But, Saul of Tarsus was also a Jew (and, who's to say he was not one of the very Jews to whom Christ was speaking in that passage?), and also was not a believer in Christ, so what, exactly, would you say was the cause of Saul's unbelief? We know that the Apostle Paul was one of Christ's sheep, but what about Saul of Tarsus? Was Saul of Tarsus--a man who did not believe--one of Christ's sheep, or not? If Saul of Tarsus was one of Christ's sheep, then what caused Saul of Tarsus to not believe?

In v. 27, Jesus said



But Saul of Tarsus, through all his life prior to Christ's appearance to him on his way to Damascus, was not hearing Christ's voice, and was not following Christ, so, according to Christ's words in v. 27, Saul of Tarsus must not have been one of Christ's sheep, whereas the Apostle Paul, indeed, was one of Christ's sheep.

Or, if you wish to say that Saul of Tarsus, in his unbelief, in his not hearing Christ's voice, in his not following Christ, in his murdering of Christ's followers, was, indeed, one of Christ's sheep, then, with sheep like that, what use has Christ for goats?
Click to expand...

Paul was a Sheep. Thats why He believed. All are not Sheep Jn 10:26
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Folks like all others the sheep of Christ are born lost and alienated from God, however Christ seeks and finds His lost sheep, thuse Illustrated in Lk 15:1-4

[FONT=&quot]3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
But mind you, it was still a Sheep even while lost, or it makes no sense to say "I have found my sheep which was lost."

One of things a lost sheep will do Jesus says is this Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Thats why Paul became a believer, to hear Jesus voice Acts 22:14

And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

However not all lost men and women are Christs Sheep for which He died, again Jn 10:26

so consequently they shall never believe. One doesnt believe to become a Sheep of Christ, but ones believe because they are a found sheep that was lost, and Christ found them as one of His Lost Sheep[/FONT]
 
God's Truth

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beloved57 said:
Folks like all others the sheep of Christ are born lost and alienated from God, however Christ seeks and finds His lost sheep, thuse Illustrated in Lk 15:1-4

[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]3 [/B][/FONT]And he spake this parable unto them, saying,[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]5 [/B][/FONT]And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
But mind you, it was still a Sheep even while lost, or it makes no sense to say "I have found my sheep which was lost."

One of things a lost sheep will do Jesus says is this Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Thats why Paul became a believer, to hear Jesus voice Acts 22:14

And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

However not all lost men and women are Christs Sheep for which He died, again Jn 10:26

so consequently they shall never believe. One doesnt believe to become a Sheep of Christ, but ones believe because they are a found sheep that was lost, and Christ found them as one of His Lost Sheep[/FONT]
Click to expand...

Paul wasn't saved the time he believed on that road to Damascus, which disproves your theory.

Paul had to become as a sheep, and that means he had to believe and obey Jesus by doing some things.

He went where Jesus said to go, then Paul didn't eat or drinking anything and spent three days praying.


Hosea 4:16 Stubborn like a heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow?


Just like all Samaritans, and Gentiles were NOT sheep until they became sheep AFTER believing and obeying Jesus.


Matthew 15:25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 But Jesus replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” 27“Yes, Lord,” she said, “even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

The dogs can become sheep if they believe and obey.
 
7djengo7

7djengo7

This space intentionally left blank
beloved57 said:
Paul was a Sheep. Thats why He believed. All are not Sheep Jn 10:26
Click to expand...

You read English as poorly as you write it. If you had read what I wrote in the very quotation you just included in your post, you would have read that

...the Apostle Paul, indeed, was one of Christ's sheep.
Click to expand...

What purpose do you feel it served to state to me, "Paul was a Sheep", right after I had just stated that the Apostle Paul was one of Christ's sheep?

You did not answer my question; you outright ignored it.

I asked you what caused Saul of Tarsus to NOT believe.

So, again, what caused him to NOT believe? Why did Saul of Tarsus not believe?
 
I

iamaberean

New member
7djengo7 said:
Since the gospel is that Jesus never loved, and never died for some portion--perhaps the vast majority--of mankind, then, if you have never believed that Jesus never loved/died for those people, you've never believed the gospel, and thus, you have never been saved.
Click to expand...

Jesus was the Messiah of the children of Israel. He even said that "I have come only for the lost sheep of Israel".Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They rejected him and he was put to death on the cross. After he was rejected the salvation of Israel and the Gentile became the "whosoever will".

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
 
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