My reply to beanieboy

[beanieboy]

My personal opinion in this, and it is only my own personal opinion and as such does not impact on what others hold to be true for them regarding Christ's suffering and death, is that
1.Above all, Christ suffered and died for me so that I would be set free
2. I do not need to focus on nor visualise the pain He went through, but will forever remember the pain and torment that He has released me from...that was a life without Him
3. I need to live my life in a way that brings merit to His suffering and sacrifice, by way of striving to achieve the full measure of Christ within myself
4. His grace came through His willing death, His sacrifice, His giving up His life for all...and it is that point that any movie etc should highlight..the 'reason' for it all. He wants us all to never forget the 'reason'. The 'reason' far outweighs the 'actions' because the 'reason' is His hope for us.
Just as the 'reason' that lies behind giving birth - love, hopes and dreams for our progeny- is remembered far longer than the 'action' - the pain of childbirth.

I probably have waffled and not done justice to my thoughts and feelings on this, but I hope you sort of get what I'm trying to convey .

Would you say that his "sacrifice" was not simply being beaten, but his life?
He was persecuted by the Pharisees contstantly - and those were the ones telling everyone how Godly they were and righteous they were.
He was constantly being tested, having traps layed before him, tempted by Satan, etc.

As humans, we think, "Yikes, it would hurt to have a spike through my wrist, and hung their for 8 hours."
But thinking about it in a bigger picture, it seems a big sacrifice to be God, and come down in human form, experience human fear, nervousness, anger, illness, sadness, and the very limitations of human ability.
And there is also some "sacrifice" that Jesus wasn't always calling 10,000 angels, as the song goes, everytime he was in a bind, not turning stones to bread when he was hungry, etc. I mean, if he could do that, it would be very easy to be "human" if you were acting like Superman. But to actually live as a human, within the constraints of physics, the human body, etc., seems a huge sacrifice.

 

[beanieboy]

Because the wages of sin is death, and He had to pay the price for men to become set free from that punishment. Those who are His will never see death. His Life is given to those who wish to be set from from their own death.

You missed what I asked.
He forgave sins prior to his death.
So, why was his crucifiction neccessary?

 

[beanieboy]

And you don't know the difference?

The difference between what - the movie and reality, or Shephard and Jesus?

While I may want to see a movie about the occurrence - a dramatization to better understand what happened, I wouldn't want to see 1/4 of it in graphic detail of him being beaten, because I think it would demean what happened, and make the tragedy more like a voyeuristic form of sadism, not unlike the upcoming Hostel.

I wouldn't want to see a close-up of Kennedy's brains splattering all over, because the could create that with computer graphics.

I wouldn't want to see a graphic depiction of Lincoln being shot in the head, and blood pouring out of the hole like a clip from Fargo.

All of these things would sensationalize the violence, and in so, dishonor the tragedy.

 

[Granite]

There's something decidedly masochistic about the story.

 

[On Fire]

My point is:
The Passion was more about the pain, than it was about the resurrection.
Most of Gibson's movies focus on the violence, and I think focussing on the violence misses the focus of the sacrifice/resurrection.

The Passion told a previous rarely told part of the story. You would prefer to bury the truth?

 

[beanieboy]

The crow gouging out the eyes of one of the thieves, clearly NOT scriptural, is more akin to The Omen II .

 

[beanieboy]

The Passion told a previous rarely told part of the story. You would prefer to bury the truth?

Did the bible "bury the truth" by leaving out the crow gouging the thief's eyes?
Or did his research uncover that?
Or did he decide to add the violence?

And if he is adding violence, that is no longer truth.

But the story is far from "rarely" told.

 

[On Fire]

beanie the sex addict,

You do NOT want to understand. You have proven this time and time again. You only want to argue. Your schtick is nearly as tired as Gerald's.

 

[Granite]

The crow gouging out the eyes of one of the thieves, clearly NOT scriptural, is more akin to The Omen II .

It was a grotesque, unnecessary invention to what was already horrific.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

The eyes are one of the first things scavenger birds go for.

 

[Granite]

The eyes are one of the first things scavenger birds go for.

And Romans crucified their victims naked.

 

[beanieboy]

Another reply:

http://www.forusa.org/media/for-statement-pass-31904.html

Every Good Friday in parts of the rural Philippines, flagellants beat themselves, and are mercilessly beaten, with whips and boards filled with barbs and nails, hour upon hour. For these "folk" Christians, Good Friday and ritualized violence go together.

Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Passion of Christ is the flagellant's dream: Unending torture and torment, blood and gore. If this is redemption, then it is redemption through the most gratuitous violence conjured by the most fevered imagination. More importantly, the graphic and relentless cruelty pushes everything important about Christ to the margins. Nowhere does the movie encourage reflection on the life and teachings of Jesus, on his example to the world, on the meaning of his resurrection.

...

For those of us who call ourselves Christians, the answer to Gibson's portrayal of Christ is Jesus himself. Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love God with all one's heart, mind and strength and that the second was to love one's neighbor as oneself. He taught us to show compassion to the poor, the widow and the orphan. He healed the sick and fed the hungry. He called on his followers to be peacemakers, to forgive, and to overcome evil with good. His life, his example, his sacrifice and his risen Spirit are the very antithesis of the gory violence celebrated in this movie

 

[On Fire]

Nowhere does the movie encourage reflection on the life and teachings of Jesus, on his example to the world, on the meaning of his resurrection.

Liar!

 

[beanieboy]

From a Quaker:

To grasp the point of the passion story it is absolutely crucial to face the violence and suffering Jesus endured. A core message of the New Testament is that Christians triumph over brutality by having the courage to face it, no matter how bad it is. The passion story pits the power of the Roman empire against the power of Christ's message of non-violent obedience to God. Jesus modeled for us what the Quakers call "speaking truth to power," even when speaking that truth meant torture and death. Lying would have saved him when death was imminent; Jesus chose truth. Pilate is mystified that Jesus would put faith in God and obedience to God ahead of suffering, torture and death. Jesus was uncompromising in his obedience - and in his defiance of earthly authority. He submitted to God, not to Rome.

All that being said, I found the violence in The Passion excessive. I don't argue that violence is not appropriate to the subject, merely that Gibson overdid it. After his arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane, the guards beat Jesus until one of his eyes turns purple and swells shut. It is this distorted - and distracting - face that we watch while Jesus is on trial. Later, Jesus is scourged by Pilate's men. His hands are chained and he is brutally beaten by gleeful guards wielding cat-o-nine tails until his back is a bloody mess. If this alone is not horrific enough, the guards then bring heavier, spiked instruments to beat him with. Finally, they unshackle his wrists ... but no, it's not over yet! They lay him on his lacerated back and scourge his front.

Christians have rightfully argued that many movies display similar violence without raising the kind of uproar greeting The Passion; this is a reason to decry that Hollywood violence, not excuse Gibson's excess.


(and addressing Robin, the writer adds)

Christians have also argued that we must see this graphic display of violence so that we can fully understand how much Jesus suffered. This view alarms me. Do we suffer a cultural absence of imagination? Has the violence in our culture ratcheted so high that we need this level of ultra-violence to "get" that Jesus suffered?

Throughout the movie, I found myself saying "earth to Mel: less is more." In my heart, I fear the violence that saturates this film will reinforce in the minds of non-believers the idea that Christianity is a sick, twisted religion that feeds on suffering and guilt.

 

[Granite]

It does feed on suffering and guilt. A film like Gibson's is just more honest about it than others.

 

[beanieboy]

The Quaker said something really interesting - that they saw a picture of a man lynched, his arms behind his back, his face twisted in agony - and a picture of Jesus, his head bleeding, his hands and feet bleeding - and saw them as very similar, in their grotesque images. To an outsider, to see a bloody Jesus didn't seem like a sacrifice he made for them, but a grotesque religion that keeps him on the cross, rather than celebrates his resurrection.

And interesting point.

 

[On Fire]

Throughout the movie, I found myself saying "earth to Mel: less is more." In my heart, I fear the violence that saturates this film will reinforce in the minds of non-believers the idea that Christianity is a sick, twisted religion that feeds on suffering and guilt.

You fear? You're worried about what non-believers will think of Christianity? :darwinsm: You LIAR!

My faith contains not a drop of fear or guilt. But I can see how a sex addict like you would think otherwise.

 

[On Fire]

Originally Posted by beanieboy

Nowhere does the movie encourage reflection on the life and teachings of Jesus, on his example to the world, on the meaning of his resurrection.

Originally Posted by On Fire

Liar!

You neg rep me for this? You ARE a liar. Every Christian I know reflected on the life and teachings of Jesus, on his example to the world, on the meaning of his resurrection. Every one of them. That make you a LIAR.

 

[beanieboy]

OF

PLEASE READ MY POSTS.

THEY ARE QUOTES FROM OTHER PEOPLE - CHRISTIANS - ABOUT THE MOVIE.
NOT ME.



Now, please stop disrupting the thread with your juvenile posts.

 

[Granite]

You fear? You're worried about what non-believers will think of Christianity? :darwinsm: You LIAR!

My faith contains not a drop of fear or guilt. But I can see how a sex addict like you would think otherwise.

Dude, chill out. The Quaker he was quoting was the one who said this.