My reply to beanieboy
- Thread starter Agape4Robin
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Agape4Robin
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Your witticism is underwhelming.......Flipper said:
Agape4Robin
Member
I have previously posted my arguement. Go back and read 'em.Flipper said:
Flipper
New member
OK, I'll ask more politely.
I'm sure I don't have "clue 1" about it, so how's about you clue me in on it? My questions aren't intended to be insulting or anything - I'm just wondering how such claims are to be supported. That's not unreasonable of me, I hope?
For all I know, they are.
I'm sure I don't have "clue 1" about it, so how's about you clue me in on it? My questions aren't intended to be insulting or anything - I'm just wondering how such claims are to be supported. That's not unreasonable of me, I hope?
For all I know, they are.
Aimiel
Well-known member
He was beaten, with His Head hooded, and told to prophesy who hit Him. He was whipped, and, although the depiction of Jesus' flesh torn open in the movie was 'gratuitous' in that if a man were to be sliced open as the movie depicted, he'd bleed to death in about 30 seconds, it couldn't show how painful being whipped with what the Roman soldiers used in those days was. They used a whip with multiple leather strips which were dipped in blood, and then broken pottery shards, which caused multiple tiny scratches to open the victim's skin in many, many places, which then were aggravated by sweat, dirt and repeated wounds. He was nailed to a cross and after dying was opened with a spear, and when the serum and corpuscles were seen coming out separately, His death was confirmed by a medical fact unknown at the time.Granite said:
The fact is, Jesus came to this earth to suffer and to die. He said so Himself. If His Purpose in this life was to suffer and die at the hands of gentiles, then that ought to be focused upon, at least enough to bring home the point that His suffering was great. I don't doubt but that His suffering was greater than any man has ever bourne. I believe that His suffering was from the pain of every sin ever committed. I believe that He was conscious of every single sin that ever will occur, and felt the agony of the consequences of that sin. He became that sin. He paid the price (death) for all sin, but that payment is only applied to those who look to Him for salvation.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Keep in mind that these sufferings are taking place upon a man capable of praying so hard that His blood pressure exceeds His own skin's ability to hold the pressure. He was a carpenter. One of the hardest jobs (physically and mentally) that there is. His survival upon the cross was due to His stamina, and I believe that if the thieves (not much exercise in that vocation) He was crucified next to were marred beyond any longer appearing human, that Jesus wouldn't have had anyone to talk to on the crosses next to Him.
Agape4Robin
Member
You mean this?Flipper said:
A Physician Testifies About the Crucifixion
by Dr. C. Truman Davis
Of course, the physical passion of the Christ began in Gethsemane. Of the many aspects of this initial suffering, the one of greatest physiological interest is the bloody sweat. It is interesting that St. Luke, the physician, is the only one to mention this. He says, "And being in Agony, He prayed the longer. And His sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground."
After the arrest in the middle of the night, Jesus was next brought before the Sanhedrin and Caiphus, the High Priest; it is here that the first physical trauma was inflicted. A soldier struck Jesus across the face for remaining silent when questioned by Caiphus. The palace guards then blind-folded Him and mockingly taunted Him to identify them as they each passed by, spat upon Him, and struck Him in the face.
In the early morning, battered and bruised, dehydrated, and exhausted from a sleepless night, Jesus is taken across the Praetorium of the Fortress Antonia, the seat of government of the Procurator of Judea, Pontius Pilate. You are, of course, familiar with Pilate's action in attempting to pass responsibility to Herod Antipas, the Tetrarch of Judea. Jesus apparently suffered no physical mistreatment at the hands of Herod and was returned to Pilate. It was in response to the cries of the mob, that Pilate ordered Bar-Abbas released and condemned Jesus to scourging and crucifixion.
Preparations for the scourging were carried out when the Prisoner was stripped of His clothing and His hands tied to a post above His head. It is doubtful the Romans would have made any attempt to follow the Jewish law in this matter, but the Jews had an ancient law prohibiting more than forty lashes.
The Roman legionnaire steps forward with the flagrum (or flagellum) in his hand. This is a short whip consisting of several heavy, leather thongs with two small balls of lead attached near the ends of each. The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across Jesus' shoulders, back, and legs. At first the thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutaneous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles.
The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises which are broken open by subsequent blows. Finally the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue. When it is determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner is near death, the beating is finally stopped.
The half-fainting Jesus is then untied and allowed to slump to the stone pavement, wet with His own blood. The Roman soldiers see a great joke in this provincial Jew claiming to be king. They throw a robe across His shoulders and place a stick in His hand for a scepter. They still need a crown to make their travesty complete. Flexible branches covered with long thorns (commonly used in bundles for firewood) are plaited into the shape of a crown and this is pressed into His scalp. Again there is copious bleeding, the scalp being one of the most vascular areas of the body.
After mocking Him and striking Him across the face, the soldiers take the stick from His hand and strike Him across the head, driving the thorns deeper into His scalp. Finally, they tire of their sadistic sport and the robe is torn from His back. Already having adhered to the clots of blood and serum in the wounds, its removal causes excruciating pain just as in the careless removal of a surgical bandage, and almost as though He were again being whipped the wounds once more begin to bleed.
In deference to Jewish custom, the Romans return His garments. The heavy patibulum of the cross is tied across His shoulders, and the procession of the condemned Christ, two thieves, and the execution detail of Roman soldiers headed by a centurion begins its slow journey along the Via Dolorosa. In spite of His efforts to walk erect, the weight of the heavy wooden beam, together with the shock produced by copious blood loss, is too much. He stumbles and falls. The rough wood of the beam gouges into the lacerated skin and muscles of the shoulders. He tries to rise, but human muscles have been pushed beyond their endurance.
The centurion, anxious to get on with the crucifixion, selects a stalwart North African onlooker, Simon of Cyrene, to carry the cross. Jesus follows, still bleeding and sweating the cold, clammy sweat of shock, until the 650 yard journey from the fortress Antonia to Golgotha is finally completed.
Jesus is then quickly thrown backward with His shoulders against the wood. The legionnaire feels for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moves to the other side and repeats the action being careful not to pull the arms to tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement. The patibulum is then lifted in place at the top of the stipes and the titulus reading "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" is nailed in place.
The left foot is now pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed. The Victim is now crucified. As He slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists excruciating pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain -- the nails in the writs are putting pressure on the median nerves. As He pushes Himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet.
At this point, as the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward. Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.
Hours of limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain where tissue is torn from His lacerated back as He moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins...A terrible crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart. It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissue; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain. The body of Jesus is now in extremes, and He can feel the chill of death creeping through His tissues. This realization brings out His sixth words, possibly little more than a tortured whisper, "It is finished."
His mission of atonement has completed. Finally He can allow his body to die.
With one last surge of strength, he once again presses His torn feet against the nail, straightens His legs, takes a deeper breath, and utters His seventh and last cry, "Father! Into thy hands I commit my spirit."
Now, as to the length of time it took Jesus to die.
JESUS LAID DOWN HIS LIFE
John 10:17-18 "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
Luke 23:46 "Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit'." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
The average time of suffering before death by crucifixion is stated to be about 2-4 days(Tenney), although there are reported cases where the victims lived for 9 days.(Lipsius) The actual causes of death by crucifixion were multifactorial, one of the most significant would have been the severity of the scourging. (Edwards) Jesus died a quick physical death (Pilate was surprised that He had died so soon.(Mark 15:44)). While many of the physical signs preceding death were present, one possibility is that Jesus did not die by physical factors which ended His ability to live, but that He gave up His life of His own accord. His last statement, "Into your hands I commit my Spirit" seems to show that Jesus' death occurred by giving Himself up. In John 10, He states that only He has the power to lay down His life. He proved His power over death by His resurrection. Truly, God is the one who has power over life and death.
Agape4Robin
Member
I':think: m not sure I understand what you're asking...............Flipper said:
Agape4Robin
Member
Agape4Robin said:
Yes, I am familiar with that.
You are talking about the Passover, weren't you?
Was Jesus' blood put on the doorway when the Angel of death came?
It says a lamb, a literal lamb.
Otherwise, Jews believe in Jesus when they observe Passover.
Otherwise, the shephards all herd Jesus.
That makes NO SENSE.
Your arguing skills are atrocious.
You simply insult the person that is arguing with you, cut and paste what someone else thinks, or same something with the equivalent of "whatever."
If you can't converse with the adults, go sit at the children's table.
Make a point, back it up, and argue what you think, not simply the quotes of other people.
Part of what is being said is:
Christians claim that Jesus is the pinnacle of sufffering, which proves his love for us.
But there are others who have sacrficied their lives and suffered far more than Jesus.
POWs in Vietnam suffered horrible tortures, far worse than Christ. Christ was stabbed in the side to speed up his death.
Does that mean that Christ's love isn't as strong as one who fights for his country?
Did Christ not love us enough to hang on a cross for days, like many did in his time? (You are hanging by your hands and feet, but that isn't enough to kill you.)
That's the point being made.
The amount of pain seems irrelevant to redeption and ressurrection.
But for Christians, it seems the most important part. Big deal he died, but did it hurt?
Some people said that the film was two graphic for children. What does that tell you?
A few people said, "Wow. Jesus went through so much for me."
But it was BECAUSE of the violence, and not the death, that they say that.
Had he simply been beheaded, would people just shrug, and think it wasn't such a big deal?
Martin Luther King gave his life for civil rights. And died from a quick shot to the head. If he had been dragged to death, would that make him standing up to unjustice any more meaningful?
No. He knew he was riskiing his life, and stood up anyway.
Rosa Parks didn't die at all, and people still see her as a hero.
But with Jesus and the Passion, it's like the more it hurt, the more Jesus loved you.
Christians claim that Jesus is the pinnacle of sufffering, which proves his love for us.
But there are others who have sacrficied their lives and suffered far more than Jesus.
POWs in Vietnam suffered horrible tortures, far worse than Christ. Christ was stabbed in the side to speed up his death.
Does that mean that Christ's love isn't as strong as one who fights for his country?
Did Christ not love us enough to hang on a cross for days, like many did in his time? (You are hanging by your hands and feet, but that isn't enough to kill you.)
That's the point being made.
The amount of pain seems irrelevant to redeption and ressurrection.
But for Christians, it seems the most important part. Big deal he died, but did it hurt?
Some people said that the film was two graphic for children. What does that tell you?
A few people said, "Wow. Jesus went through so much for me."
But it was BECAUSE of the violence, and not the death, that they say that.
Had he simply been beheaded, would people just shrug, and think it wasn't such a big deal?
Martin Luther King gave his life for civil rights. And died from a quick shot to the head. If he had been dragged to death, would that make him standing up to unjustice any more meaningful?
No. He knew he was riskiing his life, and stood up anyway.
Rosa Parks didn't die at all, and people still see her as a hero.
But with Jesus and the Passion, it's like the more it hurt, the more Jesus loved you.
SOTK
New member
The day that you are beaten, scourged, and crucified you can have your opinion. Until then, I would shut your mouth. The truth is that you have no idea what kind of pain Christ endured nor do I believe you care. Your arguments carry the same tone in every post you post at TOL. You go to great lengths, in fact, ridiculous lengths at times to argue against a Biblical point. For a self-professed Buddhist, you sure do carry a lot of hate and animosity towards Christians, the Bible, and to God. Believe me, it shines through with every word you type.
I have no problem with you asking questions of us or disagreeing with us, but it's how you go about it which bugs the heck out of me. Hell, Granite and even Flipper are more respectful than you and they don't ascribe to any religion.
I have no problem with you asking questions of us or disagreeing with us, but it's how you go about it which bugs the heck out of me. Hell, Granite and even Flipper are more respectful than you and they don't ascribe to any religion.
Agape4Robin
Member
Wrong, beanieboy. That is not what is being said.beanieboy said:
Like I said before, I had read the scriptures that pertained to Christ's crucifixion, but they were words on a page. After I saw the movie and began a study to determine if what I saw was truth or sensationalism, I began to realize that it was true. It was a big deal and I think many Christians (if they would be honest) took the suffering and brutality of Christ's death, for granted. The written words just didn't impact them (me) like it probably should have. But His death was designed by God from the beginning and followed after the Law as it applied to the Levites. They were the priests who carried out the sacrificial duties according to Levitical Law.
Mel Gibson took those words and made them move and breathe and we could no longer look away and minimize what Christ went through.......and He went through it willingly. No one "killed" Jesus. He laid down His life willingly.
BTW...........Martin Luther King Jr. didn't willingly give up his life for civil rights, his life was taken from him. He was murdered! Not the same as Christ. Not even close. Risking your life is not the same as giving up your life.
Rosa Parks? Come on, now............you misuse the meaning of hero.
SOTK said:
My point is:
Christ's death was about his death and resurrection, not about the pain.
The Passion was more about the pain, than it was about the resurrection.
Most of Gibson's movies focus on the violence, and I think focussing on the violence misses the focus of the sacrifice/resurrection.
If you say that watching Jesus beaten for an hour somehow makes you feel closer to Jesus, then that is your opinion.
As I said, while I feel that the tragedy of Shephard was inhumane, i would never want a filmmaker to exploit that with a 1 hour beating sequence.
Agape4Robin said:
So, in other words, "Jesus died for me" meant little to you as a Christian, until you saw that it was painful.
You hae said as much.
brtw - Martin Luther King was warned that he was risking his life, and yes, it was taken from him just as it was taken from Christ.
He sacrifided his life for the civil rights of others, as a soldier fights for freedom.
Is it the same as Christ? Of course not. Nor did I say that.
But dying for a cause doesn't make it less heroic just because the death was fast and quick.
Your disregard for King and Parks says a lot of what is in your heart, and it sure isn't the love of Jesus.
King was Christian, and followed the example of Christ.
SOTK said:
That may be true.
But there is a lot of snide arrogant hatred among your brethren as well.
And for that, you either don't see it, or aren't brave enough to speak out about it.
Robin's interactions are usually snide.
Do you say anything?
Do you say anything when she provokes it?
no. and that makes you a hypocrite.
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