My Religion

[nikolai_42]

Yes....you are right on the points above. But, aren’t you doing the same thing you accuse me of when you accept the Bible as divine revelation of truth?

Which would be fine, if in fact it could be demonstrated. But I don’t think it does. I could tell you why but I guess you don’t want to hear it. So, I’ll just say....if the Bible is the divine revelation of truth, then it must be that consistently....right?

Or, would you accept that the Bible is partially true, partially not true? Partially human and partially divine? If so, then you could dismiss the false parts as being the mistakes of men?

Your foundational statement and core belief (ahem) is that truth is of the utmost importance and that it is the standard for everything. But then - going a little further - we find that you have no way of attaining to that which you supposedly strive. That's self-defeating (perhaps intentionally so?). It's deconstruction both at a linguistic and a propositional level. And you haven't the tools to reconstruct the world the way it "really is". But then you didn't create it. You came along....and it was already there. I don't need to prove that. It's established fact. Conscience testifies to a Creator. That Creator is perfectly represented in scripture - not as a Deistic, disinterested God; or one of a pantheon that is constantly seeing internal conflict; or one that is vengeful and angry all the time. These are all man's conceptions. The God of scripture is the only one that could not be a creation of man's mind. And the salvation of the bible is of God coming down to man rather than man working his way to God. The argument will not go far with you, maybe, but everything from the Creation to the plan of salvation to the nature of the Godhead is specific to the bible such that Jesus means something very specific and "God" implies a great deal that doesn't mesh with any other faith.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
John 8:23-27

This same God has already established what our predicament is and what is meant by sin (go through the Ten Commandments...are these arbitrary?). His standard is beyond us to reach - and He doesn't expect us to do so. But He has provided a way where by we can be reconciled to Him and know Him in the way you desire Truth. It isn't through you or by your own understanding, meditation, works etc... it is by His self-revelation in Jesus Christ.

You have already admitted you can't determine whether the bible is true or not (just that you can make statements about it that can be confirmed as your beliefs), but if God is real and has revealed Himself to others - then the act of reading and suspending that permanent disbelief will show you whether it is true or not. And that disbelief will be (if you approach it sincerely) disarmed by statements like this :

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
John 17:9-10

But it won't even be the statements - rather it will be the Holy Spirit opening your eyes.

For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Isaiah 45:18-24

Remember, whether or not I say the bible is fully or partially infallible shouldn't make a difference to you since you have already admitted you can't make that determination yourself.

 

[Jacob]

No. God didn’t command blood sacrifice. The Bible claims God commanded blood sacrifice. Those two statements are not the same. No one knows what God actually said, but we do know that people wrote the Bible. If you have the logical mind to understand complex mathematics, then you should also be able to understand the logic in what I just said.

You are aware that there are no original bibles available for fact checking right? And you do know that it has been demonstrated that biblical texts have changed over time....right? That means people have changed the Bible at Will, over the centuries and millennia.

When we say that no one knows what God actually said we are not making a true statement. Because in the Bible we read when people wrote down what God said.

 

[Guyver]

Nikolai42, that was a really long post. Did you wish me to comment on each part of it, or just the parts I like?

 

[Guyver]

When we say that no one knows what God actually said we are not making a true statement. Because in the Bible we read when people wrote down what God said.

With all due respect Jacob, I must disagree with you. If what you’re saying is true, then I guess you also accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God? I will just assume “no” because most Christians I’ve ever known (except the Mormon ones) absolutely reject the Book of Mormon right out of hand as being false without ever even reading it.

I also reject it as being the words of God, but I have read it.

Anyway, the point is that it would be irresponsible and illogical to just assume that because someone says or writes that God said something it must actually be God speaking. What if the person saying God said something and writes it down is crazy, and they’re telling people that God just spoke to them and said “Go kill all the Jews and have no mercy?”

Or, “ I command you to go to the slaughter and kill every Hindu!”

But, sometimes people who wrote or edited the Bible make these very claims.

So no, I do not automatically accept something as being from God just because someone says it is, nor do I think that any wise person should do so. But, to each his own. If people want to think God is a killer, hateful, supports genocide, rape, slavery and blood sacrifice...that is their business. But if their religion calls them to harm others, I call BS, and I call it loudly.

And I think it would be the height of hypocrisy for any Christian who claims to believe God is love to think otherwise because love doesn’t act like that.

But that’s my opinion so take it or leave it.

 

[Jacob]

With all due respect Jacob, I must disagree with you. If what you’re saying is true, then I guess you also accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God? I will just assume “no” because most Christians I’ve ever known (except the Mormon ones) absolutely reject the Book of Mormon right out of hand as being false without ever even reading it.

I also reject it as being the words of God, but I have read it.

Anyway, the point is that it would be irresponsible and illogical to just assume that because someone says or writes that God said something it must actually be God speaking. What if the person saying God said something and writes it down is crazy, and they’re telling people that God just spoke to them and said “Go kill all the Jews and have no mercy?”

Or, “ I command you to go to the slaughter and kill every Hindu!”

But, sometimes people who wrote or edited the Bible make these very claims.

So no, I do not automatically accept something as being from God just because someone says it is, nor do I think that any wise person should do so. But, to each his own. If people want to think God is a killer, hateful, supports genocide, rape, slavery and blood sacrifice...that is their business. But if their religion calls them to harm others, I call BS, and I call it loudly.

And I think it would be the height of hypocrisy for any Christian who claims to believe God is love to think otherwise because love doesn’t act like that.

But that’s my opinion so take it or leave it.

I hope I wouldn't be left to take it or leave it. You can reconsider your position. When we talk about prophets writings things down, you are correct. Evaluate the prophet. However, when we talk about what the Bible says, we can say that on the whole when you read it there are times where we are learning from whoever wrote it down what God said.

For example,

Exodus 4:22 NASB - "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

Now did God say this or not?

Again,

Exodus 4:21-23 NASB - The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn. "So I said to you, 'Let My son go that he may serve Me'; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn."'"

 

[Guyver]

Sorry, I didn’t mean to be insulting to you by saying take it or leave it Jacob. I was saying it to whomever happens to read this thread. But I was saying it to you as well.

I’ll tell you why. You say you believe in offering blood sacrifice to please God. Please tell me exactly how God would be pleased by the slaughter of an innocent animal offered to him in sacrifice? What kind of a person would wish another to suffer and/or die in order for them to be happy?

God must be of greater love and moral character than me, and I would despise such a thing. I would command my followers to show their faith by showing love to all living things. How could one thing God made be of less importance that any other thing?

Sheez. Sometimes even talking about this kind of thing is frustrating.

 

[Guyver]

I hope I wouldn't be left to take it or leave it. You can reconsider your position. When we talk about prophets writings things down, you are correct. Evaluate the prophet. However, when we talk about what the Bible says, we can say that on the whole when you read it there are times where we are learning from whoever wrote it down what God said.

For example,

Exodus 4:22 NASB - "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

Now did God say this or not?

Jacob, how can you believe that God only has one son? OMG! Is God actually God, or did you just accept some crazy religion? If God actually made everything and everyone, then how in the heck could anyone not be his?

It just seems so plainly obvious as to not even need saying. God can’t be like partially God and not. Is there actually a God or not?

If there is actually a God then every person, animal and molecule is absolutely his, and exactly what it should be as he planned it. And if not, then don’t try to tell me you believe God is OMNI, because you don’t even believe it and you’re lying to yourself through deception and religious indoctrination.

 

[Guyver]

Just admit that you believe in some other kind of god, like an ancient human one, and not the real one, and that would satisfy. To think God less than he is or must be is just wrong, IMO.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, how can you believe that God only has one son? OMG! Is God actually God, or did you just accept some crazy religion? If God actually made everything and everyone, then how in the heck could anyone not be his?

It just seems so plainly obvious as to not even need saying. God can’t be like partially God and not. Is there actually a God or not?

If there is actually a God then every person, animal and molecule is absolutely his, and exactly what it should be as he planned it. And if not, then don’t try to tell me you believe God is OMNI, because you don’t even believe it and you’re lying to yourself through deception and religious indoctrination.

Just admit that you believe in some other kind of god, like an ancient human one, and not the real one, and that would satisfy. To think God less than he is or must be is just wrong, IMO.

Are you disagreeing with me or with the scriptures? You say that I believe that God only had one son, when the scriptures are talking about the nation of Israel being His firstborn son. It says thus says the LORD, and that is what we were talking about, whether you accept it or not.

 

[Jacob]

Sorry, I didn’t mean to be insulting to you by saying take it or leave it Jacob. I was saying it to whomever happens to read this thread. But I was saying it to you as well.

I’ll tell you why. You say you believe in offering blood sacrifice to please God. Please tell me exactly how God would be pleased by the slaughter of an innocent animal offered to him in sacrifice? What kind of a person would wish another to suffer and/or die in order for them to be happy?

God must be of greater love and moral character than me, and I would despise such a thing. I would command my followers to show their faith by showing love to all living things. How could one thing God made be of less importance that any other thing?

Sheez. Sometimes even talking about this kind of thing is frustrating.

Are you asking about the passing between the parts or if sacrifice involves eating in communion with God? As for pleasing God sacrifice may be pleasing to God but I think you are missing the point. It may be that it cost God something, or it may be that to be restored to communion with God you have to think about it and sit down with God about it, or after it. The sin needs to be dealt with, for a sin sacrifice or sin offering.

 

[Guyver]

Jacob, I see that you have posted and asked me questions, but to be honest, I just don’t feel like talking about it at this time. Peace be with you.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, I see that you have posted and asked me questions, but to be honest, I just don’t feel like talking about it at this time. Peace be with you.

Shalom. Peace be to you.

 

[k0de]

What does he say?




Truth is that which is not false.

"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truthand the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) NIV

And don't we all think that we now the truth. So how can we know if Jesus is lying that you are telling the truth?



Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

 

[Hawkins]

Sorry, I didn’t mean to be insulting to you by saying take it or leave it Jacob. I was saying it to whomever happens to read this thread. But I was saying it to you as well.

I’ll tell you why. You say you believe in offering blood sacrifice to please God. Please tell me exactly how God would be pleased by the slaughter of an innocent animal offered to him in sacrifice? What kind of a person would wish another to suffer and/or die in order for them to be happy?

God must be of greater love and moral character than me, and I would despise such a thing. I would command my followers to show their faith by showing love to all living things. How could one thing God made be of less importance that any other thing?

Sheez. Sometimes even talking about this kind of thing is frustrating.

That rather remains your own lack of understanding of what things are.

Animal sacrifice is a command from God to the Jews. God also said that He's not happy purely because of the sacrifice itself. He's happy because of the obedience of the Jews, in taking His command of animal sacrifice.

1 Samuel 15:22 (NIV2011)
But Samuel replied: “Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


Animal sacrifice is for the preparation of Jesus' coming. Jesus won't just come hung Himself and said that He died for our sin. He followed a sacred process established through the Jews about how a clean sacred Lamb is sacrificed for the purpose of atoning for human sin.

Your shallow understanding of Christianity sometimes is a communication stopper.

 

[Hawkins]

So, the first principle of my religion is that truth supersedes belief.

From what I tell, you lost the big picture about what Christianity is. Let me explain a bit to you.

The first question is, do you know what could possibly lie ahead of your after your death?

This is not about fear, it's about responsibility.

When you try to go across a street, you take a look at the traffic situation before you rush into the street. It's so because you have a future which can be affected by a possible running car. You don't do this out of fear. You do this as it's a responsible act to your own life.

Christianity is about an ancient warning similar to "there's a running car which may affect your future". It's more analogue to a claim that "there's a bomb around". It's a responsible attitude to look into its possibility, similarly to how you examine the traffic before jumping onto the road. Second, unlike traffic we can't examine the evidence of the truth of the claim. We either believe the claim if the source is credible enough to make our run, or refuse to run by treating it as a hoax.

The situation now is, the one made the claim that "there's a bomb around" had himself killed by the terrorists in order to bring the message out. That's how people may find it creditable to make their run. Similarly, Christianity is brought out by those eyewitnesses martyred themselves to testify its truth.

That's what Christianity is.

 

[Guyver]

From what I tell, you lost the big picture about what Christianity is. Let me explain a bit to you.

The first question is, do you know what could possibly lie ahead of your after your death?

Yes. There are two possibilities as I see it.

1. There is life after death.

2. There is no life after death.

Both possibilities have been claimed by those I am aware of who have experienced it. In the first case, people who have had death or near death experiences claim that the afterlife is so amazing wonderful that they didn’t wish to return to this miserable existence.

In the second case, the people I have spoken with who experienced a similar event said there was nothing and they have no recollection of consciousness after death.

 

[Jacob]

There is life after death. In the resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked. Of the just and the unjust.

 

[Guyver]

There is life after death. In the resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked. Of the just and the unjust.

Jacob, what you have just expressed is a belief. There is a big difference between a fact and a belief. I mean, anyone can believe anything they make up their mind to. A belief doesn’t have to be real, but a fact does. A belief is something hoped for, wished, or thought to be. That is not to say that there is not factual basis for believing something to be true....sometimes there is, but it doesn’t change the fact of the matter.

A fact is something that is known to be. It has been observed, experienced, well understood and documented by science. Facts are things that are real. For example, it is a fact that there is death after life.

This is not in dispute. We know that every living thing dies. We know this not only because we observe and experience it, but it is documented in the Earth. In layers of sediment are all the living things that have died and exist no more physically- except as elements.

 

[Guyver]

A belief may be true, or not be....but a fact is true. That is why I place such emphasis on believing the truth. The fact that something is in the Bible doesn’t actually make it true.

So, that why it is important to not only understand the differences between facts and beliefs, but to understand that what a person believes could be based upon “facts” that are not actually facts.

For example, I used to believe that the Bible was the inerrant Word of God. I believed it for a long time, until I found facts that contradict that belief within the Bible itself.

It can be shown that there are obvious mistakes in the Bible as well as obvious edits made by unknown editors. That makes the unreliable source of facts. So, if you want to believe that something from the Bible is factually true, you have to find evidence to support it.

If there is no evidence to support it, then it may not be actually true. I hope that helps those who would actually seek the truth instead of just offering lip service to it.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, what you have just expressed is a belief. There is a big difference between a fact and a belief. I mean, anyone can believe anything they make up their mind to. A belief doesn’t have to be real, but a fact does. A belief is something hoped for, wished, or thought to be. That is not to say that there is not factual basis for believing something to be true....sometimes there is, but it doesn’t change the fact of the matter.

A fact is something that is known to be. It has been observed, experienced, well understood and documented by science. Facts are things that are real. For example, it is a fact that there is death after life.

This is not in dispute. We know that every living thing dies. We know this not only because we observe and experience it, but it is documented in the Earth. In layers of sediment are all the living things that have died and exist no more physically- except as elements.

Are you saying that you believe what I said to be a belief?

Acts 24:15 NASB - having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Acts 24:15 NKJV - "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of [the] dead, both of [the] just and [the] unjust.