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Apple7

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And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them. (Surah 4.159)


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا بل رفعه الله إليه وكان الله عزيزا حكيما وإن من أهل الكتب إلا ليؤمنن به قبل موته ويوم القيمة يكون عليهم شهيدا


Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman wa-in min ahli alkitabi illa layu/minanna bihi qabla mawtihi wayawma alqiyamati yakoonu AAalayhim shaheedan

And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, allah's messenger", and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him. But “allah”, he raised Him to him, and “allah” was mighty, wise. And that from The Book's people, except he certainly shall believe with Him before His death; and the Resurrection Day is on them a witness. (4.157 – 159)
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
And for their saying, "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God." In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him. (Surah 4.157)
 
All the murderous violence in the Quran against other faiths aside, the devil a murderer from the beginning and the father of such things (John 8:44), Islam denies the Son of God, the deity of Christ, is, therefore, by Bible definition, an antichrist religion, a lie of the devil, and anybody in concord with things antichrist is a child of the devil. Nobody serves two masters. Enough said.

1 John 2:18. 22 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
 

Apple7

New member
And for their saying, "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God." In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him. (Surah 4.157)

When asked about Jesus’ Crucifixion, Muslims will invariably reference one ayah from the Koran, to support their conviction.

Islam bases an entire doctrine regarding Jesus’ crucifixion & death upon the cross, on a single solitary Koranic ayah.

And in this single solitary ayah, the entire doctrine teeters upon the rendering of a single solitary word (wama) – which Islam has misinterpreted as a negative.


The correct rendering of this ayah is as thus…




وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا


Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


To overcome the Muslim mindset, we need to first define the Arabic word that has been misinterpreted by Islam.

Here is the classic Arabic definition for "ma"...

ما = “ma”

“ma” definition:

Conjunctive pronoun. That; which; that which; whatsoever; what; as; as much; in such a manner as; as much as; as for as; any kind; when; how. Does not, as a rule, refer to reasonable things, but instances to the contrary sometimes occur. It is one of those particles, which, in conditional propositions, govern the verb in the conditional mood; it is frequently a mere expletive. It is also a negative adverb, Not; in general it denies a circumstance either present, or of past, but little remote from the present; it governs the attribute in the accusative, thus it is a negative particle when placed before the perfect as in 53.2; or before a pronoun as in 68.2; or before an demonstrative noun as in 12.31. The particle, when joined to the perfect, denies the past; when joined to the imperfect, the present.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3016
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 2, p. 300
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 523 - 524
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 135 - 136




As we can see below..."ma", when joined to "wa", is simply a filler-word in this ayah...


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا


Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



As witnessed by the plethora of positives in this ayah, the conditional mood is only positive.

Couple this, to the very next ayah, as thus…



بل رفعه الله إليه وكان الله عزيزا حكيما

Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman

4.158 But “allah”, he raised Him to him, and “allah” mighty, wise.




4.157 & 4.158 tell us of its most likely Biblical source...


This One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him. But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it. (Act 2.23 - 24)


As we can see, 4.157 & 4.158 are simply parroting NT material...


Thus, context is clear that in 4.157 “wama” is simply governing the verb in the conditional mood – which is positive….NOT negative.


Further, rendering this Islamic one-hit-wonder ayah as a negative would force other Koranic ayahs into contradiction.



As further evidence that 4.157 confirms Jesus’ death upon the cross, all the Koranic crucifixion instances are shown here, which confirm that the Koran always describes a crucifixion event with complete certainty of death…



• 5.33…they will be crucified till death
• 7.124…I will surely crucify you till death
• 12.41…so will be crucified till death
• 20.71…and I will surely crucify you till death
• 26.49…and I will surely crucify you till death



Death through crucifixion is always mandated in the Koran.

Thus, there is no reason at all to believe that 4.157 would break this trend…
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
When Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour upon thee and upon thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the Spirit of holiness so that thou didst speak to the people in the cradle and in middle age; and when I taught thee the Book and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when thou didst fashion a creation out of clay, in the likeness of a bird, by My command; then thou didst breathe into it a new spirit and it became a soaring being by My command; and thou didst heal the night-blind and the leprous by My command; and when thou didst raise the dead by My command; and when I restrained the children of Israel from putting thee to death when thou didst come to them with clear Signs; and those who disbelieved from among them said, ‘This is nothing but clear deception.’”
[5:111]
 

Greg Jennings

New member
The words of the Lord Jesus Christ are incompatible with islam.

Not really.

And before you say something like "It says to kill people in their book!" in order to try to prove that Islam and Jesus aren't compatible, I'll ask you to tell me how Abraham/David/Joshua and other Jewish leaders who preached and practiced violence against non-believers are compatible with Jesus, but Mohammed (who revered Jesus) isn't
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
And before you say something like "It says to kill people in their book!" in order to try to prove that Islam and Jesus aren't compatible, I'll ask you to tell me how Abraham/David/Joshua and other Jewish leaders who preached and practiced violence against non-believers are compatible with Jesus, but Mohammed (who revered Jesus) isn't

Of course Mohammed revered Jesus, after all the Qur'an says that Allah created Jesus out of dust.

Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then He said to him, ‘Be!,’ and he was.
[3:60]​

You believe Allah created Jesus out of dust don't you?
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Of course Mohammed revered Jesus, after all the Qur'an says that Allah created Jesus out of dust.

Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then He said to him, ‘Be!,’ and he was.
[3:60]​

You believe Allah created Jesus out of dust don't you?

Well I'm agnostic, so I don't really have a set belief. The Koran also says that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. I don't see how he could've been created from dust and also born of a woman
 

Apple7

New member
When Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour upon thee and upon thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the Spirit of holiness so that thou didst speak to the people in the cradle and in middle age; and when I taught thee the Book and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when thou didst fashion a creation out of clay, in the likeness of a bird, by My command; then thou didst breathe into it a new spirit and it became a soaring being by My command; and thou didst heal the night-blind and the leprous by My command; and when thou didst raise the dead by My command; and when I restrained the children of Israel from putting thee to death when thou didst come to them with clear Signs; and those who disbelieved from among them said, ‘This is nothing but clear deception.’”
[5:111]


No Arabic support exists for inserting the term 'death' into this ayah.
 

Apple7

New member
Of course Mohammed revered Jesus, after all the Qur'an says that Allah created Jesus out of dust.

Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then He said to him, ‘Be!,’ and he was.
[3:60]​

You believe Allah created Jesus out of dust don't you?


إن مثل عيسى عند الله كمثل ءادم خلقه من
تراب ثم قال له كن فيكون


Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu

3.59 Truly Jesus' similitude with allah, as/like Adam, He created him out of dust then said to him: "Be thou." so (he) is.




The message behind the rendering:

• Two comparisons are made “mathalu” & “kamathali”
• The first (former) comparison is between Jesus and “allah”
• “allah” is shown to be co-equal “mathalu” with Jesus
• Jesus is shown to have always existed “inna” with “inda” “allah”
• Jesus was not created
• The second (latter) comparison is redundant to the former
• The second comparison describes the creation “khalaqahu” of Adam
• It is referring to man…not to Jesus
• It is singular
• It refers to the act of measuring; or determining the measure, proportion, or the like, of a thing; and the making a thing by measure, or according to the measure of another thing; or proportioning a thing to another thing
• The originating or producing a thing after a pattern or model which one has devised, not after the similitude of anything pre-existing.
• As meaning the bringing into existence from a state of no-existence. As an act of God, signifies the creating out of nothing
• We are told that Adam was created, i.e. he had a beginning (out of nothing), in the likeness of his creator
• Adam is made from dust “turabin”
• The creation of man in this ayah is rooted in sura 86…which shares the same root as “turabin”
• The Word of “allah” brings forth Adam
• The Word i.e. Jesus is co-equal with “allah”
• Man is created through Jesus
• Jesus is God



Thus…it becomes quite clear that the second comparison of this ayah is simply re-enforcing the Biblical stance that Jesus (the Word) is what brought Adam into existence out of nothing.
 

intojoy

BANNED
Banned
Not really.

And before you say something like "It says to kill people in their book!" in order to try to prove that Islam and Jesus aren't compatible, I'll ask you to tell me how Abraham/David/Joshua and other Jewish leaders who preached and practiced violence against non-believers are compatible with Jesus, but Mohammed (who revered Jesus) isn't

Easy.

The bible is clear that Abe would not inherit the land in his lifetime. Why? For the iniquity of the land was not yet full. Full meaning the Cainaanites had time to repent. About 600 years.

The God of Abraham let the people continue their homosexuality, human sacrafice, beastiality and idolatry (demon worship) go on until they passed a line of no return.

Then like the flood, judgement fell and Joshua burns thru the infidels.
 

intojoy

BANNED
Banned
But keep in mind greg, that within the laws of Moses (613 not just 10) God made provisions for the Gentiles. The Jews were not told to kill them.

Also a huge difference is that Yeshua never once said to anyone to kill or convert. Something Mohamed did say and do.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers and say not ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, Allah is the only One God. Far is it from His Holiness that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a Guardian.
(4.172)
 

Apple7

New member
O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers and say not ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, Allah is the only One God. Far is it from His Holiness that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a Guardian.
(4.172)


Mainstream renderings that proclaim that Jesus is the Son….



Literal…

You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on (about) God except the truth, but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son (is) God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you, but God (is) one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what (is) in the skies/space and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God (as a) guardian/protector. (4.171)



Free-Minds…

O people of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God's messenger and the fulfillment of His word to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not Say: "Trinity." Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the Earth. God is enough as a caretaker. (4.171)



Arberry…

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian. (4.171)
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
And say, ‘All praise belongs to Allah Who has taken unto Himself no son, and Who has no partner in His Kingdom, nor has He anyone to help Him on account of weakness.’ And extol His glory with all glorification. (17.112)​
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

(Surah 19)
 
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