1P1P is a cult like Mormonism.
ECT MUD interp flaw
- Thread starter heir
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1P1P is a cult like Mormonism.
Obviously, heir and I do not see eye to eye on some things in Scripture.
But I sincerely doubt she meant what you took her above words to mean.
I understood them as follows...
"When did the prophets prophesy that [that] grace [that they had prophesied] should come unto Israel [was to come]?
I took her words to be referring to Israel's PROPHESIED grace.
Thus her follow up words "(another clue to you that this is different than Paul's preaching!)"
All your assertion is...is your projection of your practice once more...of what is actually your practice unaware it is your practice...which you then just as unaware...project or perceive as the practice of someone else...
When not expressing that you have not understood another's post; you are just as often observed reading things into another's post, that they had actually not intended.
To point this out to you is to receive the same kind of response from you one can always expect from the insecure...
Rather than putting their false pride aside that they might see their ignorance for the rock of stumbling that it actually is; individuals like you in this take personal offense to having their error pointed out to them.
Your response to this post, as a result; is to be expected.
You are that consistently full of yourself in your duplicitous, one sided finger pointing.
The result with your kind, in this?
You are..."Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" 2 Timothy 3:7.
By the way; Paul's "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" is not a reference to comparing Scripture with Scripture.
That wasn't what she said -
Interplanner
Well-known member
You really are a mindless person. Those are the exact things that happen to me, about every week. The same denials, the same hypocritical uses of scripture etc.
another one: just believe what is written. But if I go do that at Eph 3 or Acts 13, I get pounded by MADs for not being MAD first, "and then you will understand what you are reading, little interpeer."
Over at another thread, RD is trying to persuade me that a kingdom was offered in Acts 3, with Jesus as king. Never mind the exegesis there for the moment, the 'restored kingdom' drive got going 2 centuries ago among Jews in Europe and started to think that to really practice their faith, they needed to be in a temple in their land etc. That is, to un-do the letter to Hebrews. Well, guess what? The Bible-expert prophecy guys in D'ism and MADs, are right along with them, because 2P2P needs to survive outside the contraints of the Bible. It does not matter if there is utter conflict with Judaism, this new in-place Judaism is now absorbed as being 'fulfilled prophecy.' Not the resurrection in Acts 13, no way. But another temple with the real people and the real language in the real land, doing animal sacrifices and temple services? Yeahhhh, baby. That's the real thing.
heir
TOL Subscriber
No, it isn't.
The timing of the atonement for Israel vs. that of the Body of Christ is different. Acts 3:19-21 KJV is not Romans 5:11 KJV! You must 1 Corinthians 2:13!
And on a side note: As far as the Body is concerned, it is the MAN CHRIST JESUS Who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV). You must 1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV!
I am 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV. Why aren't you?
heir
TOL Subscriber
When did the prophets prophesy that grace should come unto Israel (another clue to you that this is different than Paul's preaching!)?
Answer:
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Your references to I Cor 2 are worthless because they make an 'inside secret' out of something that is as plain as day: God was in Christ reconciling the debt of mans' sin. He didn't do that one time for Jews and one time for Gentiles who have a secret access formula.
You can't make the timing different when the material action was at one time, and the only people he preached to in Acts 2 were one people. That's God's business--making the Spirit do things at Pentecost, and who God placed there. There was no deliberate exclusion of Gentiles there; probably some of the people beaten up by Judaism's insistence on 3x to Jerusalem each year were there. But God was trying to fetch as many Jews as possible at first to kick start the mission.
MAD theories are no contest for the mission of God and for starting it with as many Jews as possible. MAD may as well do surgeryies with plastic straws. It sucks.
You have no idea what is going on and it is definitely not a secret wisdom formula. And I Cor 2's secret wisdom is not what you just mentioned. It is the same "in Christ" teaching that Paul does everywhere and is resisted so many times, including by modern literalists.
So no, you do not qualify on 2 Tim 2. I know your claim but your reasons are unknown and obscure.
heir
TOL Subscriber
The words which the Holy Ghost teacheth throughout the scriptures are not the same. They’re not even said to the same people. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual is about comparing words.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
When the words in the Bible, for instance in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, say something different than that which Paul preached to us; we follow Paul (1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV)/we hold fast the form of sound words that we have heard of Paul (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV).
heir
TOL Subscriber
1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV is absolutely mystery. Paul shows us that! 1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV has to do with comparing Holy Ghost words of prophecy with Holy Ghost words of mystery:
Acts 3:21 KJV Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
vs.
Romans 16:25 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
...
1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
And more mystery...
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
There's no need to fight it. Instead, approve things that are excellent!
I appreciate the sentiment. I know it was difficult for you to compliment me, however, you did it and don't think for a minute that I don't appreciate it. You're quite a guy and I marvel at your ability to articulate your thoughts into such marvelous words.
Interplanner
Well-known member
That isn't what you were saying earlier. You were saying there was one kind of atoning act at one place in Acts and another meant by Rom 5:11 or so. I Cor 2 means nothing of the sort, even if you know how to use a keyboard and paste it 1000 times.
The mystery is not the coming of grace or the gospel or the incoming of the nations or the mission to the nations. None of that is mystery to the OT. Just glance at Is 44-45 for a minute, to see that. It is that it is true in the Gospel, not in Judaism and its way of doing the Law. THAT is the sting of Eph 3:5. The nations (who believe) are one with Israel, its inheritance, its fellowship 'through the Gospel.' Not the law.
This is what is meant by the truth IN CHRIST as opposed to what we think makes sense. Or what Judaism tried to make sense. and definitely not how D'ism 'makes sense.' The veil hides it, but in Christ it is there, 2 Cor 4.
You were saying?
heir
TOL Subscriber
You were saying?
heir
TOL Subscriber
I never said any such thing. The work of the atonement was a one time event. However, the timing in which Israel will reap the benefit of the atonement is future (Acts 3:19-21 KJV, Romans 11:25-27 KJV, Hebrews 8:8-12 KJV, Hebrews 10:12-13 KJV) while we have now received it (Romans 5:11 KJV, Colossians 2:10 KJV).
The word "compare" is a compound word.
In other words, it is a word that is comprised of more than one word; the intent of which is towards conveying more than one meaning at the same time; through one word.
You have "com" which is in the sense of "with" and the word "pare" which is actually the word "pair."
To compare is to pair together one thing, with another.
Sometimes, the sense is that of putting things together in order to study their similarities and or differences.
Other times, the sense is that of fitting two or more things together in order to form one thing out of them.
This latter sense is the one Paul is making use of...
1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Paul had been made privy to the wisdom God in a mystery; even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world (was) unto OUR GLORY.
And as he wrote about it; he
was PAIRING TOGETHER... those visions he was receiving from the Lord concerning these things of God...WITH their appropriate word descriptions...
...he was PAIRING TOGETHER those spiritual things, WITH their appropriate, equally Spirit given, word descriptions.
His words were thus, spiritual.
He was attempting to paint a spiritual picture of those things of God through the Words of God.
Problem was, that said words and their intended picture, were meant for he that is spiritually mature in his outlook.
That is; he that is mature in where he looks at things from in his day to day - in other words; through God's eyes...
Such were not the Corinthians...
As a result, Paul was lamenting the fact that his words would be of no
avail; for the Corinthians were "yet carnal..."
They did not look out at their world and or their dealings with one another, from within a perspective of Christ died for both of us; which is a spiritually mature perspective.
Rather; they looked at things from where the fleshly mind looks at things - with its' endless need to be the issue, thus; its' resulting, perpetual focus on pettiness and belief in payback and all the rest of that...
They were - NOT - PAIRING TOGETHER where they were looking at their problems with one another from WITH where God would have them look at ALL things from.
In short; Paul was not talking about comparing one verse with another, as that was not even his topic.
He was referring both to the origin of his words, as well as to the imagery in our minds, they were meant to convey.
Yep :thumb:
Interplanner
Well-known member
And you don't see the 2P2P? Ever read Rom 15 folks?
When all the wrath that is written has been dished out in the DofJ, where on earth do you get the notion that there is a direct line connecting the atonement with a restoration?
Ever read Dan 9? He prays thinking foregiveness = a restoration of the land. Instead Messiah comes and succeeds in all his works and the city and temple are ruined. That is the template.
Israel does not recieve 3:19-21 "apart from anyone else" because look at what is there: the times of refreshing were about being able to take the gospel to the ends of the earth, and the restoration of everything is the NHNE as in late Isaiah, where 'it is too small of a thing to save Judah, I will take my salvation to the ends of the earth.'
Which is why Acts has the shape it does, and why Paul laments the leaders in ch 26 still operating all the wheels of the worship system AS THOUGH the fulfillment had not arrived!
I believe Christ could have returned right after the DofJ but it does not have a Judaic angle to it. That is not what the restoration of everything is, nor what the referenced prophets meant. Acts tells us that.
In v24, they are in these days being talked about (which is why I have long since 'left the scene' like D'ists do when reading 19-21.) The days are happening to them now. It is not future, though the sending is at the end, but close enough to be considered the next thing, as in I Cor 1:7.
Likewise how can you possibly but heb 8 in the future when the old is (now) fading and the new has come! Listen to 8:1, for crying out loud. Talk about "a point of what we are saying"! And this goes on for 4 chapters that way (cp 10:19) There is nothing future intended at all of the new covenant accessories. You have read the one OT passage as though it was not surrounded by commentary!
What good is a new priest inside the barrier if you have to wait X000 years for it. Not the intended meaning! Badly done.
Rom 11 is not a prediction. It is saying how the other Israel (not the ethne) formed through the Gospel and that all believers will be in it. But Isaiah is quoted as historically fulfilled.
What time is it within a basketball game when the game is resumed after a time out?
Time outside that game may have continued on, but when that game resumes, it not only resumes where it left off, but only then does its clock begin to mark time - right from where it left off...
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
And how far is it from Earth to Heaven...
John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Time outside that game may have continued on, but when that game resumes, it not only resumes where it left off, but only then does its clock begin to mark time - right from where it left off...
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
And how far is it from Earth to Heaven...
John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.