More on "All Things"

[Clete]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Just trying to read it from the Bible book, but glad to hear where I am wrong, if I am mistaken! I think your claim is from the Open View books, and is not a verse, I would ask again, how can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

Blessings,
Lee

How do you deal with prophecies that use such terms that do not come to pass?

Jos 3:10 And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God [is] among you, and [that] He(God) will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Just trying to read it from the Bible book, but glad to hear where I am wrong, if I am mistaken! I think your claim is from the Open View books, and is not a verse, I would ask again, how can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

Blessings,
Lee

Which prophecies specifically? Let's look at them in context from differing schools of thought. Some prophecies are conditional, while some are certain due to God's intent and ability to bring things to pass apart from human agency (certain due to His omnicompetence, not His so-called simple foreknowledge).

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Clete: How do you deal with prophecies that use such terms that do not come to pass?

Jos 3:10 And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God [is] among you, and [that] He(God) will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites...

But he did! They aren't there now...

Lee: how can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

Godrulz: Which prophecies specifically?

Here is a survey:

Hebrews 6:14 "Surely I will bless you and multiply you."

Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside ...

Jeremiah 32:4 Zedekiah king of Judah will not escape out of the hands of the Babylonians but will certainly be handed over to the king of Babylon, and will speak with him face to face and see him with his own eyes.

Jeremiah 38:3 Thus says the Lord: "This city shall surely be given into the hand of the army of the king of Babylon and be taken."

Amos 5:5 "... for Gilgal shall surely go into exile, and Bethel shall come to nothing."

Amos 7:17 Therefore this is what the Lord says: "Your wife will become a prostitute in the city, and your sons and daughters will fall by the sword. Your land will be measured and divided up, and you yourself will die in a pagan country. And Israel will certainly go into exile, away from their native land."

Matthew 24:2 Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

Matthew 26:34 Jesus said to him, "Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times."

Here are two verses I need to address, in this connection, though:

Isaiah 63:8,10 For he said, "Surely they are my people, children who will not deal falsely." And he became their Savior. ... But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit ...

But this was God's work, and not their choice, primarily:

Isaiah 63:17 Why, O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?

Zephaniah 3:7 I said, "Surely you will fear me; you will accept correction. Then your dwelling would not be cut off according to all that I have appointed against you." But all the more they were eager to make all their deeds corrupt.

I would take these verses as a prophecy about their future obedience, which will happen in spite of their rebellion:

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel will be saved by the Lord with an everlasting salvation; you will never be put to shame or disgraced, to ages everlasting.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[godrulz]

These prophecies can be made based on perfect knowledge of the past and present (character, circumstances, etc.). They deal with proximal issues/lifetime (near knowledge), and cannot be extrapolated as proof texts that God knows EVERY detail of EVERY free choice from trillions of years ago to trillions of years in the future, even before the existence of something to be known (remote knowledge). He does know much of the future and foreknows it prophetically (judgments, etc. under His control). This does not mean He knows every moral or mundane choice every person will make from trillions of years ago (no proof texts for that).

The prophecies are also things that are within God's control to bring to pass. Am intent to judge an evil nation in the near future based on perfect past and present knowledge is not a basis to argue that God knows who will win the Superbowl in 20 years or if person x will or will not chose Christ even before the person exists (unless you are a hyper-Calvinist, which is not defensible).

 

[Clete]

I asked lee...
How do you deal with prophecies that use such terms that do not come to pass?

Jos 3:10 And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God [is] among you, and [that] He(God) will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites...

Lee responded...

Originally posted by lee_merrill
But he did! They aren't there now...

Not because God removed them from before Israel!

This answer is not acceptable Lee! It is trite and disengenuous at best! God did not do as He said He would because of Israel's disobedience to Him, which you seem to be suggesting cannot happen.
You need to read Jer. 18. It is perhaps the single most important chapter in the entire Bible!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

What is the rest of the story with Joshua 3? What happened historically, and what is the Open view explanation (I am not clear about your point)?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by godrulz

What is the rest of the story with Joshua 3? What happened historically, and what is the Open view explanation (I am not clear about your point)?

nor am i. please explain clete.

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

godrulz said,

What is the rest of the story with Joshua 3? What happened historically, and what is the Open view explanation (I am not clear about your point)?

GIT followed with,

nor am i. please explain clete.

I know Clete won't mind that I jump in here...

Let's look at the "history" of God's people and what He says He will do for them...

Exodus 33:2 - "And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perrizite and the Hittite and the Jebusite.

Exodus 34:11,24 - Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perrizite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.
24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.

Jos 1:4-5 From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your territory.
5 No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so shall I be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you.

Jos 3:10 - And Joshua said, By this you shall know the living God is among you, and that He will WITHOUT FAIL drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizittes and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites.

God said that He would drive all these nations out. But later we see these passages...

Jos 15:63 - As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Jerusalem to this day.

Jos 16:10 - And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.

Judges 2:1-3 - Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gigal to Bochim, and said, "I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, "I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars." But you have not obeyed my voice. Why have you done this?
3 Therefore I also said, "I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare to you."

Judges 2:19-22 - And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they reverted and behaved more corruptly than their fathers, by following other gods, to serve them and bow down to them. They did not cease from their own doings nor from their stubborn way.
20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice,
21 I will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,
22 so that through them I might test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the LORD, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not."

Judges 3:1-6 - Now these are the nations which the LORD left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any wars in Canaan
2 (this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it),
3 namely, five lords of the Philistines, and all the Cannanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites who dwelt in Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal Hermon to the entrance of Hamath.
4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites.
6 And they their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons; and they served their gods.

The main questions I have are -

Why did God say He would WITHOUT FAIL drive them out, and then did not?

Why did God need to test Israel?

godrulz & GIT,

Be especially mindful of Judges 2:1-3. God explains the "history" of this entire event in those 3 verses...

Judges 2:1-3

1 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gigal to Bochim, and said, "I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, "I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars." But you have not obeyed my voice. Why have you done this?
3 Therefore I also said, "I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare to you."

God said He would WITHOUT FAIL drive out the nations, but the children disobeyed. God, once again, changed His mind about what He said He would do. I am confident that God would have been successful in driving out the nations IF His children would have obeyed.

Clete's point about Jeremiah 18 (and Ezekiel 18 for that matter) fits quite nicely here.

God Bless, --Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Lee,

One quick thing for you... You said,

Your translations against mine, then. We have to look elsewhere to resolve this issue. How about here?

NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

This is the same word "nacham," but clearly the context does not allow "grieved" or "sorry." Balak is trying to get God to change his mind, and Balaam says he won't do it. He can't do it! We have the reason here, too, it is because he is not like us! Not because in this special situation, he has made a firm decision.

*Emphasis above in Blue is mine...

God can't do something? Wow!

Lee, are you implying that God is unable to do something? Are you now saying he is no longer "all powerful?"

Secondly, what amazes me is, you actually understand the context of Numbers 23:19 in light of Numbers 22:1-23:19. I appreciate that. Take your logic one step further though...

You are correct when you state "Balak is trying to get God to change his mind, and Balaam says he won't do it." God will not be bribed in this situation. God is standing frim and will not change His mind about His decision to bless Israel. No matter what Balak promises to God, no matter how many times Balak bribes God, God will not change His mind.

With that said, why do you understand Numbers 23:19 to be a universal truth about God's character? You seem to imply that God will not (can not?) change His mind... Ever???

This is completely and utterly false. There are over twenty instances in God's Word where He does indeed change His mind. Doogie has referenced a couple, Clete added Jeremiah 18. Believe me, there are many more.

Back to the logic of Numbers 23:19... Numbers 23:19 is not a universal truth about the character of God. Again, God is saying He will not change His mind in this specific situation. We have a similar situation in 1 Samuel 15.

God sends Samuel to inform Saul that He is taking the throne from Saul. God "repented" (nacham) that He set up Saul as king (1 Sam 15:11). Saul lies to Samuel and has a false repentance. Saul asks Samuel to return with Him and worship God. How does God respond? God says He will not change His mind about His decision. God has already decided to take the throne from Saul, and will not make an exception (1 Sam 15:29). God will not "repent" (nacham) in this instance either. After Samuel does what Saul should have done (killed Agag), Samuel went away. God again "repented" (nacham) that He set up Saul as king (1 Sam 15:35).

Lee, why does God "repent" (nacham) twice in this passage, and not "repent" (nacham) once? I thought God was unable to "repent" (nacham), but He does it here twice in 24 verses...

God Bless, --Jeremy

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

This thread has flown off topic a bit from my original post. I am guilty as well...

The point of this thread was to find out if "all things" that God knows and "all things" that Christ knows can be limited in any way. I referenced 1 John 3:20 and John 21.

Lee, if Christ knows "all things" and God knows "all things," why doesn't Christ know when He will return? Wouldn't that "future" event be part of "all things" from the calvinist / arminian view point?

--Jeremy

 

[Clete]

POTD

POTD

Jeremy,

Post # 28 is POTD

You may feel free to "jump in" any time you like! There's simply no way I could have answered their question nearly as well as you did!

Brilliant!!!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

This thread has flown off topic a bit from my original post. I am guilty as well...

The point of this thread was to find out if "all things" that God knows and "all things" that Christ knows can be limited in any way. I referenced 1 John 2:20 and John 21.

Lee, if Christ knows "all things" and God knows "all things," why doesn't Christ know when He will return? Wouldn't that "future" event be part of "all things" from the calvinist / arminian view point?

--Jeremy

The incarnation/kenosis is the usual answer why Christ on earth did not know (veiled omniscience). The Open View would also suggest that at that point it was not certain when Christ would return. Paul expected the imminent return of Christ in his day. The Father will have Christ return in the fullness of time.

 

[godrulz]

Re: POTD

Re: POTD

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Jeremy,

Post # 28 is POTD

You may feel free to "jump in" any time you like! There's simply no way I could have answered their question nearly as well as you did!

Brilliant!!!

Resting in Him,
Clete

So Joshua 3 is another example of a prophecy (cf. Hezekiah) that appears unconditional on the surface, but was actually conditional? This is reasonable in light of Hebrew style and context.

 

[Clete]

Re: Re: POTD

Re: Re: POTD

Originally posted by godrulz

So Joshua 3 is another example of a prophecy (cf. Hezekiah) that appears unconditional on the surface, but was actually conditional? This is reasonable in light of Hebrew style and context.

Yes and it's also reasonable in light of the fact that it didn't come to pass as prophesied. :thumb:


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Re: Re: Re: POTD

Re: Re: Re: POTD

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Yes and it's also reasonable in light of the fact that it didn't come to pass as prophesied. :thumb:


Resting in Him,
Clete

so this could also be used as evidence against those who say prophecies are based solely on foreknowledge. clearly this one was not. right?

 

[Big Finn]

Clete,

As I'm not an OV'er I'm curious about something. Why do OV'ers make the assumption that foreknowledge requires causation? Is this just a gut reaction to the CV?

Even I, as a non-genius human being, can predict future events with some sort of certainty given the right soft of circumstances and understanding of human nature. It seems a credible idea to me that God, being Creator of all, with an inifinite, intimate, perfect knowledge of everything involved leading to future events should be able to predict future events with great precision.

Hey, I've even been able to predict what words, or kinds of words, would be spoken in certain situations by certain people years in advance, and I don't know them nearly as well as God does.

I'm just curious as to why an infinite God could not, in the OV way of looking at things, foresee events based upon His infinite mental capabilities, and infinite knowledge of everything on earth and in the universe.

 

[godrulz]

Contingent events have an equally possibility of happening or not. If they are free, they are unknowable, though potentially predictable to some degree. God does know the past and present perfectly, and can extrapolate to high probability some future things (proximal). This is not the same as knowing everything as a certainty trillions of years before these knowable factors are available as objects of knowledge (remote).

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Big Finn

Clete,

As I'm not an OV'er I'm curious about something. Why do OV'ers make the assumption that foreknowledge requires causation? Is this just a gut reaction to the CV?

Even I, as a non-genius human being, can predict future events with some sort of certainty given the right soft of circumstances and understanding of human nature. It seems a credible idea to me that God, being Creator of all, with an infinite, intimate, perfect knowledge of everything involved leading to future events should be able to predict future events with great precision.

Hey, I've even been able to predict what words, or kinds of words, would be spoken in certain situations by certain people years in advance, and I don't know them nearly as well as God does.

I'm just curious as to why an infinite God could not, in the OV way of looking at things, foresee events based upon His infinite mental capabilities, and infinite knowledge of everything on earth and in the universe.

Excellent question!
I can't speak for all OVer's but I personally believe that what you've described is precisely the way in which God "knows" the future. But that is precisely the point. A prediction is not the same as the Armenian idea of foreknowledge. Armenians do not believe that God knows future events as mere possibilities but as future unalterable facts. Predicting is not the same as knowing for certain, even if you are 99.99999% sure.
You point out that God has perfect knowledge of both the past and the present. I think this is somewhat of an overstatement. There are passages in Scripture that clearly indicate that there are things that God is not aware of and the He has to investigate to find out. It is my belief that the Biblical data best supports the position that God knows all that is knowable that He wants to know. God is not obligated to be a present first person witness to every detail of every vile act committed by all the perverted sinners on this planet. God is where He wants to be and knows what He wants to know.
He is however supremely wise and has available to Him every bit of information that He might need in order to make very accurate predictions about what will happen in the future. In addition to this, God is able to interact with His creation in order to leverage situations and steer things in some particular direction which He might want for things to go. So God and God alone is able to make prophecies that no other god or angel or man could ever dream of being able to make.
This is the Open View as I understand it and it is what I personally believe. What do you think?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Big Finn]

Clete,

No biggie to me. I do believe God knows the future simply because the Bible says that the way I read it. I subscribe to no one system of theology.

It's just to me that God, with His infiinite capabilities, can factor in everything down to which sperm will mate with which egg, what the resulting genetic information will be, and from that know exactly what a person will be like. And then with that knowledge know exactly how that person will interact with his/her surroundings. I believe His capabilities are just being sold short by saying something is unknowable for Him is all. After all, He is infinite, and the very act of saying something isn't knowable is a limitation. It's saying that God is infinite in His ability, well, except for this area.

It's as I said before, I've predicted behavior really accurately years in advance, and I'm like an insect compared to God in intelligence. Neither do I have the wealth of knowledge and experience that God has. I would think that for Him such an expercise is childs play. After all, He can reach into the human heart and regnerate it. After that nothing else is much of a miracle when placed beside it, at least not to me.

All of us simply speculate about this so one theory or the other doesn't make that much difference in how God knows the future, except for a theory that says God is doing this in a way that will violate the basic core of His character, which I believe the CV does by making God some type of micromanager who forces all to obey Him and then punishes those who obey His commands for them to do evil things. I find such a god reprehensible and not to be found in scripture, except as the enemy of the one true God.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Godrulz: These prophecies can be made based on perfect knowledge of the past and present (character, circumstances, etc.).

Perfect knowledge of the present does not give information about the choices of people not born yet, though.

PS 22:29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship...

Godrulz: The prophecies are also things that are within God's control to bring to pass.

But these predictions are partly or solely about human choices! Not just God's choices:

Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside ...

Clete: God did not do as He said He would [in Josh. 3:10] because of Israel's disobedience to Him, which you seem to be suggesting cannot happen.

I'm not saying Israel had to obey, I'm saying God did drive out the Canaanites.

Clete: You need to read Jer. 18.

I have addressed Jer. 18 before! With Jeremy and others. In a thread about driving out these very Canaanites here. And I agree that God left Canaanites in the land to test Israel. But he drove them out, too! Afterwards, like he said. They aren't there now, folks...

Jeremy: God can't do something? Wow!

Lee, are you implying that God is unable to do something? Are you now saying he is no longer "all powerful?"

God cannot contradict himself, or sin, or lie. Or change his mind, yes, I hold to that, the ability to be mistaken is not having power!

Jeremy: why do you understand Numbers 23:19 to be a universal truth about God's character? You seem to imply that God will not (can not?) change His mind... Ever???

Yes, the reason is given here, and it's not because in this particular instance, God has made a firm decision. It's because he is not like us! So this does imply a universal truth about God.

Jeremy: Lee, why does God "repent" (nacham) twice in [1 Sam. 15], and not "repent" (nacham) once? I thought God was unable to "repent" (nacham), but He does it here twice in 24 verses...

We have to take both, don't we! So we may take "nacham" as "grieved" when it speaks of God's decision to make Saul king, and "repent" when it speaks of him changing his mind.

Jeremy: if Christ knows "all things" and God knows "all things," why doesn't Christ know when He will return? Wouldn't that "future" event be part of "all things" from the calvinist / arminian view point?

As far as Christ's knowledge while he was on earth, I would chime in with what Godrulz said, and say that Jesus did not have direct access to all knowledge then, but he did have indirect access to all knowledge, by asking the Father. After the resurrection, he may have assumed his direct knowledge of everything, with the possible exception of the date of his return, which again, the Father would tell him if he asked!

JN 11:42 I knew that you always hear me...

Clete: It is my belief that the Biblical data best supports the position that God knows all that is knowable that He wants to know.

But then we dare not hope in God, when he says he will accomplish a given purpose that involves human choices, which God must estimate. But that's not Scriptural!

ISA 19:22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

Blessings,
Lee