ECT Monergist or Synergist

[George Affleck]

You seem to mix our obedience to God direction with the process of sanctification.
We are sanctified solely by God's good pleasure. He ordains each step in our path so that He will separate us from sin and bring glory to His name. We cannot assist Him, for though we are justified by Jesus propitiation for our sins, we still posses this body of death.
Romans 7:21-25
It is a foolish thing for the saints to imagine that there is even a speck of goodness within us that we might assist our Holy Redeemer in our sanctification. We cannot for our righteousness is as filthy rags. Our sanctification is wholly the work of God alone, apart from us.
The works that God directs us to do are by His good pleasure and our obedience to those good works is brought about by God's work within us that we might be His workmanship. We can therefore take no glory for our actions nor boast in our cooperation with God. Left to ourselves, we would rebel in accordance with our sinful nature. It must be ever God who is sanctifying us or there is no sanctification at all, but only a self-righteousness disguised as holiness.

Can you answer the question; With regard to sanctification, do Christians participate?

Are they active or passive?

 

[George Affleck]

If one claims to be a duck, he will have feathers and he will quack.

If one professes he has been justified of his sins by the grace of God through faith, he will walk and talk a sanctified life.

Do you think this is a process or a static condition?

 

[Nang]

Do you think this is a process or a static condition?

Justification is a once and forever forensic ruling by God.

Sanctification is a permanent and spiritual positioning in Christ, through His abiding in them, through His Holy Spirit. This is the eternal and covenant promise of God; e.g. "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Results: The sons of God are gifted with a growing assurance, thankful hearts (worship), and a life of conformance to the Person of Jesus Christ.

All ordained, caused, and achieved by the will & power of Sovereign God alone.

 

[MennoSota]

Can you answer the question; With regard to sanctification, do Christians participate?

Are they active or passive?

God does all the work in sanctification. We are, by nature, children of wrath. This is not changed simply because God adopts us and justifies us in Christ. There is no good within us by which we can "help" God make us more holy (set apart, sanctified). God must work the work of sanctification in us and through us. It is all God's work. Apart from God we can do nothing.
God will do the work of sanctifying us. He will cause us to do good works, which He has ordained us to do. God will bring us to obedience by His ordained good pleasure. We will do the work He ordains us to do.
Our participation is directed and determined by God. We cannot thwart God's will or stop God from accomplishing his work by virtue of our own will. God will do as He pleases.
George, based upon the Arminian theology you present, I recognize you as a synergist.

 

[George Affleck]

God does all the work in sanctification. We are, by nature, children of wrath. This is not changed simply because God adopts us and justifies us in Christ. There is no good within us by which we can "help" God make us more holy (set apart, sanctified). God must work the work of sanctification in us and through us. It is all God's work. Apart from God we can do nothing.

To say there is no good in us after having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit is negating the biblical teaching that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. If He is in us, how dare you say that He is no good! And how dare you suggest that the gospel of reconciliation and the knowledge He has placed in us is no good!
Eph 1:3KJV, 1Jo 5:20KJV, Rom 8:1KJV, Rom 12:5KJV, 2Co 5:17KJV, Jhn 15:4KJV
We are no longer the children of wrath. Eph 2:3KJV

God will do the work of sanctifying us. He will cause us to do good works, which He has ordained us to do. God will bring us to obedience by His ordained good pleasure. We will do the work He ordains us to do.
Our participation is directed and determined by God. We cannot thwart God's will or stop God from accomplishing his work by virtue of our own will. God will do as He pleases.

I have not heard anyone say God's will can be thwarted. No one has suggested that ultimate glory should not accrue to God. You are attacking a straw man.
What is the purpose of being born again if it is not to actively serve God? Mat 7:24KJV, Jas 2:17KJV, Gal 5:18KJV

George, based upon the Arminian theology you present, I recognize you as a synergist.

I am comfortable with whatever label you feel necessary.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Do you think this is a process or a static condition?

A process of participation. Sort of like the following nice explanation I once read....

My son is growing up. He is not really "contributing" to that growth, but he does eat. That's "contribution," but you know he doesn't provide any of his own food, just stuffs it in his mouth. And the Lord of Providence does the rest.

He likes to be with mom. He may be standing on a chair in the kitchen, and sees mom stirring the pot. "Me help!"

"OK,' says mom indulgently, "you may stir the pot." And she takes the child's hand, and places it on top of her own. Wow, is that kid proud. He's stirring that pot! Oh yeah!

That's how we "contribute" to our sanctification. We believe the gospel. We look to the Lord, our Father and Savior, and we try to be helpful. And He brings us along.​

We should not lose sight of the fact that justification is by faith alone and faith is receptive by nature.

In sanctification the other graces are wrought in the person but these graces are creative. Therefore, although God works faith with all other graces in the person, faith is given as the instrument of receiving Christ and His righteousness, whereas the other graces are given for the purpose of bringing forth a Christ-like character and behavior.

Distinction must be made between them to the point that we can produce nothing as a part of our justification, but we must make concerted effort to be productive Christians as a part of sanctification; and in both cases—the ability to rest in none but Christ in justification as well as the desire to live for Christ in sanctification—the grace is the in-wrought gift of God.

AMR

 

[MennoSota]

To say there is no good in us after having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit is negating the biblical teaching that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. If He is in us, how dare you say that He is no good! And how dare you suggest that the gospel of reconciliation and the knowledge He has placed in us is no good!
Eph 1:3KJV, 1Jo 5:20KJV, Rom 8:1KJV, Rom 12:5KJV, 2Co 5:17KJV, Jhn 15:4KJV
We are no longer the children of wrath. Eph 2:3KJV


I have not heard anyone say God's will can be thwarted. No one has suggested that ultimate glory should not accrue to God. You are attacking a straw man.
What is the purpose of being born again if it is not to actively serve God? Mat 7:24KJV, Jas 2:17KJV, Gal 5:18KJV



I am comfortable with whatever label you feel necessary.

The key is "in Christ," which means it is not "in us." The holiness by which we position ally stand before God, in the heavenlies, is in Christ. This is why Paul talks about being crucified with Christ (position) nevertheless I live (state of wretchedness in this body of sin), yet not I, but Christ lives within me.
God gives us faith to believe and trust our position while we bemoan, like Paul about doing the things we don't want to do.
Who will deliver me? Is it me and God in cooperation toward sanctification? No. It is "thanks be to Jesus."
Now, George, there are many Godly Christians who hold a synergist view of their cooperation with God. I do not think the debate between synergism and monergism one that breaks fellowship with God or Christian. I was a synergist for a few decades and I know God's love and grace was just as full for me then as it is now. Your answer regarding salvation being by God's grace alone in gifting us faith is one that unifies us in the body of Christ. Monergism and Synergism gives us a point of view regarding grace and law after God has adopted us.

 

[George Affleck]

The key is "in Christ," which means it is not "in us." The holiness by which we position ally stand before God, in the heavenlies, is in Christ. This is why Paul talks about being crucified with Christ (position) nevertheless I live (state of wretchedness in this body of sin), yet not I, but Christ lives within me.
God gives us faith to believe and trust our position while we bemoan, like Paul about doing the things we don't want to do.
Who will deliver me? Is it me and God in cooperation toward sanctification? No. It is "thanks be to Jesus."
Now, George, there are many Godly Christians who hold a synergist view of their cooperation with God. I do not think the debate between synergism and monergism one that breaks fellowship with God or Christian. I was a synergist for a few decades and I know God's love and grace was just as full for me then as it is now. Your answer regarding salvation being by God's grace alone in gifting us faith is one that unifies us in the body of Christ. Monergism and Synergism gives us a point of view regarding grace and law after God has adopted us.

We work out our sanctification as God works in us Phil. 2:12-13KJV. These are the two truths that are equally biblical: the gift of God in sanctification and the activity of man.

John Webster says; "We pursue the gift".
Piper says; "I act the miracle".

God sanctifies us and we also sanctify ourselves according to scripture. Calvin, Turretin, Brakel, Hodge, Bavinck, and Berkhof all agree in their own words.

 

[Sherman]

I had a hard delete about 30 posts and remove a derailer from this thread. So some of you have have lost a few posts. You can now enjoy your dialog without the distraction.

 

[George Affleck]

The key is "in Christ," which means it is not "in us." The holiness by which we position ally stand before God, in the heavenlies, is in Christ. This is why Paul talks about being crucified with Christ (position) nevertheless I live (state of wretchedness in this body of sin), yet not I, but Christ lives within me.

Then why did you say there is no good in us?

 

[MennoSota]

We work out our sanctification as God works in us Phil. 2:12-13KJV. These are the two truths that are equally biblical: the gift of God in sanctification and the activity of man.

I believe it is "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." I understand this to mean grasp that work of grace, which God has done apart from any goodness in ourselves. Understand now vile and wretched we were, yet God in his merciful grace chose to redeem me anyways.
I do not consider that passage to be addressing sanctification.

John Webster says; "We pursue the gift".
Piper says; "I act the miracle".

God sanctifies us and we also sanctify ourselves according to scripture. Calvin, Turretin, Brakel, Hodge, Bavinck, and Berkhof all agree in their own words.

The idea that we "sanctifying ourselves" is not anything that Piper or Calvin would state. I do not see scripture telling me to sanctify myself.

 

[MennoSota]

Then why did you say there is no good in us?

Because there is none. There is only good in Christ. In Christ I am made righteous. In myself I am a wretched man. Who will deliver me from this body of sin? (Note that Paul states this in Romans 7 while still being found in Christ. Paul notes that it is Christ alone who works to sanctify us. There is nothing in ourselves of any righteousness. We cannot work to become more holy, just as we could not work to become saved.

 

[George Affleck]

The idea that we "sanctifying ourselves" is not anything that Piper or Calvin would state. I do not see scripture telling me to sanctify myself.

"As it is an arduous work and of immense labour, to put off the corruption which is in us, he bids us to strive and make every effort for this purpose. He intimates that no place is to be given in this case to sloth, and that we ought to obey God calling us, not slowly or carelessly, but that there is need of alacrity; as though he had said, “Put forth every effort, and make your exertions manifest to all.” John Calvin

"God's sovereign enablement of holiness does not contradict the act of human duty, it creates it." John Piper

 

[MennoSota]

"As it is an arduous work and of immense labour, to put off the corruption which is in us, he bids us to strive and make every effort for this purpose. He intimates that no place is to be given in this case to sloth, and that we ought to obey God calling us, not slowly or carelessly, but that there is need of alacrity; as though he had said, “Put forth every effort, and make your exertions manifest to all.” John Calvin

"God's sovereign enablement of holiness does not contradict the act of human duty, it creates it." John Piper

Indeed, we strive to obey and follow God, but that is not our effort to be holy by our own merit. That is our obedience to God’s commands. When we fail (and we will fail often) does that failure negate the work of sanctification that God is accomplishing?

 

[George Affleck]

We are not merely passive in it, nor yet does God do some and we do the rest, but God does all and we do all. God produces all and we act all. For that is what he produces, our own acts. God is the only proper author and fountain; we only are the proper actors. We are in different respects wholly passive and wholly active. (Jonathan Edwards, Writings on the Trinity, Grace, and Faith, in The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol. 21, [Yale University Press, 2003], 251)

 

[MennoSota]

We are not merely passive in it, nor yet does God do some and we do the rest, but God does all and we do all. God produces all and we act all. For that is what he produces, our own acts. God is the only proper author and fountain; we only are the proper actors. We are in different respects wholly passive and wholly active. (Jonathan Edwards, Writings on the Trinity, Grace, and Faith, in The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol. 21, [Yale University Press, 2003], 251)

Great quote. Read it again because Edwards is saying it's all God.

 

[George Affleck]

Great quote. Read it again because Edwards is saying it's all God.

In your opinion, is Edwards saying we are active, passive, or both?

 

[MennoSota]

In your opinion, is Edwards saying we are active, passive, or both?

In my opinion Edwards is saying that it is God alone who sanctifies. God does the work in and through us.

 

[George Affleck]

In my opinion Edwards is saying that it is God alone who sanctifies. God does the work in and through us.

So are we active or passive, or both?
He uses both of those words.

 

[MennoSota]

So are we active or passive, or both?
He uses both of those words.

I cannot help you with this struggle you are having. God works in and through us. In all cases it is God's work.
We do the work which God has ordained that we should do. Are you asking if we have free-will? No we don't.