ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

[turbosixx]

"well, never mind studying a thing out in depth in all of Scripture - what it means to me is..."

I have studied this out. I can easily see unsupported leaps you're making in your logic.

You have to figure out why what is plainly said isn't correct. Like how the church Paul persecuted is not the same one that is the body. I can take it at face value because I know they're the same one.

 

[turbosixx]

The moment the person believes Christ died for his sins, the Spirit baptizes him into the Body of Christ - that is to say, the Spirit does that through the faith or "can do - consider it done" power that is the operation of God.

That is what the world would have us believe today but I don't see any proof of this in scripture.

Acts 19:2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

Why didn't these men receive the Holy Spirit when they believed?

 

[God's Truth]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this statement.

I will assume you don't agree with the ones I posted because it contradicts what you see in the situation with Cornelius.?

If that's the case then you have to reconcile it somehow. How do you make both true?

A person can be saved before a water baptism, during a water baptism, or after a water baptism.

You are the one who cannot reconcile the scriptures, for what you say makes Cornelius and his whole household yet saved when they were saved, according to your defense of the false teachings of the church of Christ denomination.

There were people in the Bible who did not get saved after a water baptism and prayers had to be made to God so that they would be.

 

[God's Truth]

That is what the world would have us believe today but I don't see any proof of this in scripture.

Acts 19:2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

Why didn't these men receive the Holy Spirit when they believed?

What did you just say?

The scripture says they did NOT believe.

 

[turbosixx]

You are the one who cannot reconcile the scriptures, for what you say makes Cornelius and his whole household yet saved when they were saved,

I can reconcile them just fine. I see Paul had his sins because he hadn't died with Christ in baptism.
Cornelius was a special situation and Peter commanded them to be baptized. Do you know of any other place where someone was commanded to be baptized? That's because it was a special situation. According to the bible, no one else received the Holy Spirit baptism except the apostles.

according to your defense of the false teachings of the church of Christ denomination.

It's not a denomination because we do not hyphenate Christian and we are the church that Jesus died for.
Rom. 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.
Are you hyphenated? Is the name on your building in the bible?

There were people in the Bible who did not get saved after a water baptism and prayers had to be made to God so that they would be.

He was saved he just didn't stay that way. Do you believe OSAS? I don't.

 

[turbosixx]

What did you just say?

The scripture says they did NOT believe.

You'll have to point it out then because I don't see it.
2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

 

[God's Truth]

I can reconcile them just fine. I see Paul had his sins because he hadn't died with Christ in baptism.
Cornelius was a special situation and Peter commanded them to be baptized. Do you know of any other place where someone was commanded to be baptized? That's because it was a special situation. According to the bible, no one else received the Holy Spirit baptism except the apostles.

All the saved are special circumstances.
They could have been water baptized first.
Peter already had the revelation from God that He will make those who are unclean Gentiles clean. Peter went to Cornelius’ house when it was against the old law to do so. You have not proved your point at all.

It's not a denomination because we do not hyphenate Christian and we are the church that Jesus died for.
Rom. 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.
Are you hyphenated? Is the name on your building in the bible?

It is a denomination and it is one that preaches against the people Jesus did save and give his Holy Spirit to before a water baptism.

What do you mean am I hyphenated?

He was saved he just didn't stay that way.

Who are you talking about? I said there were people in the Bible who did not get saved after a water baptism and prayers had to be made to God so that they would be.

Do you believe OSAS? I don't.

No. However, I do believe that when someone is saved it would be rare to lose their salvation.

 

[God's Truth]

You'll have to point it out then because I don't see it.
2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

The people were disciples of John the baptizer. Paul asked them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They say that they have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit---which shows that they did not believe because they never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. How can they believe in something they had not heard of?

 

[turbosixx]

All the saved are special circumstances.
They could have been water baptized first.
Peter already had the revelation from God that He will make those who are unclean Gentiles clean. Peter went to Cornelius’ house when it was against the old law to do so. You have not proved your point at all.

Why did Peter COMMAND they be baptized?

It is a denomination and it is one that preaches against the people Jesus did save and give his Holy Spirit to before a water baptism.

It is not a denomination. There is no headquarters other than in heaven, no creed other than the bible. We are set up just like the church Jesus died for and we read about in scripture.

What do you mean am I hyphenated?

Baptist-Christian or Catholic-Christian or Mormon-Christian. Christ is not divided. We are merely Christians with Christ name on our building. What name is on your building?? Can it be found in God's word?

Who are you talking about? I said there were people in the Bible who did not get saved after a water baptism and prayers had to be made to God so that they would be.

You did not give a scripture so I had to assume who you were talking about, Simon. Who are you talking about?

 

[turbosixx]

The people were disciples of John the baptizer. Paul asked them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They say that they have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit---which shows that they did not believe because they never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. How can they believe in something they had not heard of?

I would disagree. Paul does not question they are believers. He never teaches them about Jesus only straightens out the issue of baptism.

If you will read the end of Acts 18, you will see why Paul does not teach them Jesus.
Acts 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, 28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.
We see Apollos taught Jesus accurately but only knew John's baptism. That's why there were believers but had not been baptized into Jesus' name.

V.27 Apollos went to Achaia which is where Corinth is located. While Apollos was there Paul rolls into Ephesus.

19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland[a] country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
If they were disciples of John, they would not know Jesus died for their sins and we would see Paul telling them that. He doesn't because the only thing they didn't know accurately was baptism. That's why he doesn't question if they believed, or if they knew Jesus, he only teaches them about baptism. Then he baptizes them right before giving them the Holy Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

Why did Peter COMMAND they be baptized? If Cornelius is the norm then why were no other converts commanded to be baptized?

God wants us to get water baptized.

It is not a denomination. There is no headquarters other than in heaven, no creed other than the bible. We are set up just like the church Jesus died for and we read about in scripture.

It is a denomination.

Baptist-Christian Catholic-Christian We are merely Christians with Christ name on our building. What name is on your building??

I belong to the body of Christ.
I do not join a denomination because they all preach some falseness.
The denomination you belong has a lot of truth but ruins it by claiming no one receives the Holy Spirit before a water baptism.

You did not give a scripture so I had to assume who you were talking about, Simon. Who are you talking about?

The people in Samaria were water baptized but they did not receive the Holy Spirit. Peter and John had to come and they prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit because they had not received the Spirit.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

 

[turbosixx]

God wants us to get water baptized.

Sorry, but that doesn't answer my question. Why did Peter COMMAND them to be baptized in this case and not in any other conversion?

It is a denomination.

Then what is not a denomination?

I belong to the body of Christ.
I do not join a denomination because they all preach some falseness.
The denomination you belong has a lot of truth but ruins it by claiming no one receives the Holy Spirit before a water baptism.

What is the name on your building?

The people in Samaria were water baptized but they did not receive the Holy Spirit. Peter and John had to come and they prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit because they had not received the Spirit.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

I would suggest you are confusing receiving the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit with being saved. The Spiritual gifts could only be given by the laying of apostles hands. If you will notice, they didn't receive the gifts without the laying of hands.
Acts 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

Rom. 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you—
2 Tim. 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands,

To say that they were not saved until the apostles prayed for them and laid hands on them is setting a dangerous precedent.
How do we know that all the people who have been baptized in the name of Jesus for the last 2,000 years are saved without the prays and hands of the apostles?

 

[God's Truth]

I would disagree. Paul does not question they are believers.

The scripture says they found some 'disciples'.

He never teaches them about Jesus only straightens out the issue of baptism.

No, he tells them about the Holy Spirit, whom they did not even know there was one.

If you will read the end of Acts 18, you will see why Paul does not teach them Jesus.
Acts 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, 28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.
We see Apollos taught Jesus accurately but only knew John's baptism. That's why there were believers but had not been baptized into Jesus' name.

V.27 Apollos went to Achaia which is where Corinth is located. While Apollos was there Paul rolls into Ephesus.

19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland[a] country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
If they were disciples of John, they would not know Jesus died for their sins and we would see Paul telling them that.

That is problematic because you are writing into the scriptures something that might not be accurate. John the baptizer proclaimed that Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. The Jews knew that lambs were sacrificed and purified people of their sins.

He doesn't because the only thing they didn't know accurately was baptism.

They were water baptized by John and it was a baptism of repentance. That is what water baptism is for.

That's why he doesn't question if they believed, or if they knew Jesus, he only teaches them about baptism. Then he baptizes them right before giving them the Holy Spirit.

I am not sure why you are still missing it. Paul asks them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They say they never heard of the Holy Spirit. So I ask you, how are they to believe in the Holy Spirit if they did not even know he existed? Paul then tells them that John says to believe in Jesus and Paul baptizes them with the Holy Spirit. They receive the Holy Spirit after they were told about the Holy Spirit. They were already water baptized before so they now only needed the Holy Spirit.

 

[turbosixx]

I am not sure why you are still missing it. Paul asks them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They say they never heard of the Holy Spirit. So I ask you, how are they to believe in the Holy Spirit if they did not even know he existed? Paul then tells them that John says to believe in Jesus and Paul baptizes them with the Holy Spirit. They receive the Holy Spirit after they were told about the Holy Spirit. They were already water baptized before so they now only needed the Holy Spirit.

From my viewpoint you are missing it.

John did not witness nor teach Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. That is of first importance to becoming a Christian.
1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
That is the foundation of Christianity. John didn't witness it nor teach it. Paul could not have given them the Holy Spirit without them knowing that. Apollos taught them everything but the proper baptism.

 

[turbosixx]

They receive the Holy Spirit after they were told about the Holy Spirit. They were already water baptized before so they now only needed the Holy Spirit.

This is not the correct sequence found in the passage. They were baptized in the name of Jesus before they received the Holy Spirit.

v.5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
How do we know what it means to be baptized in the name of Jesus?
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Then after being baptized in the name of in v.6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

 

[God's Truth]

Sorry, but that doesn't answer my question. Why did Peter COMMAND them to be baptized in this case and not in any other conversion?

Why do you say it doesn’t answer your question? God wants us to get water baptized. They were already saved and Peter said to water baptism them.

Then what is not a denomination?

A religious denomination is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity. The term refers to the various Christian denominations.

What is the name on your building?

I do not belong to a denomination so why do you think there is a building?

I would suggest you are confusing receiving the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit with being saved.

They did not get saved yet because they did not have the Holy Spirit.

The Spiritual gifts could only be given by the laying of apostles hands. If you will notice, they didn't receive the gifts without the laying of hands.
Acts 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

Rom. 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you—
2 Tim. 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands,

Paul gave the Holy Spirit by laying hands.
During the laying of the foundation, gifts were given to show that a person was saved.
It is how God testified to what the apostles taught as being from God.

To say that they were not saved until the apostles prayed for them and laid hands on them is setting a dangerous precedent.

No one is saved unless they receive the Holy Spirit.

How do we know that all the people who have been baptized in the name of Jesus for the last 2,000 years are saved without the prays and hands of the apostles?

When there were apostles who walked the earth, they helped lay the foundation. God testified to what they said by allowing them to give gifts of the Holy Spirit and other miracles such as healing people and raising the dead.

God already testified to the gospel, and the foundation has already been laid.
We are given the Holy Spirit by Jesus himself now.

 

[God's Truth]

From my viewpoint you are missing it.

John did not witness nor teach Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. That is of first importance to becoming a Christian.
1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
That is the foundation of Christianity. John didn't witness it nor teach it. Paul could not have given them the Holy Spirit without them knowing that. Apollos taught them everything but the proper baptism.

Even Paul says John told you to believe in the one who comes after him.

Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

 

[turbosixx]

Why do you say it doesn’t answer your question? God wants us to get water baptized. They were already saved and Peter said to water baptism them.

Peter didn't just say to baptize them, he commanded. Why did he command it?
The same Greek word for command is used here:
Matt. 1:24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife,

I do not belong to a denomination so why do you think there is a building?

You do not meet with other Christians in a building? House? Under a tree?

They did not get saved yet because they did not have the Holy Spirit.

Only the apostles laid hands giving the Holy Spirit. What about the eunuch, is he saved? Philip was not an apostle.
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Paul gave the Holy Spirit by laying hands.
During the laying of the foundation, gifts were given to show that a person was saved.
It is how God testified to what the apostles taught as being from God.

I agree that God testified to their word. While I agree we can know someone is saved by being given spiritual gifts, I don't agree that's why they were given. The bible doesn't say that.

We are given the Holy Spirit by Jesus himself now.

How do you know you have been given the Holy Spirit?

 

[God's Truth]

This is not the correct sequence found in the passage.

That is not true.

5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

They were baptized in the name of Jesus before they received the Holy Spirit.

And this is what I said: "They receive the Holy Spirit after they were told about the Holy Spirit. They were already water baptized before so they now only needed the Holy Spirit."

Now why are you saying wrong sequence?

v.5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
How do we know what it means to be baptized in the name of Jesus?
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Because they were already given the Holy Spirit and saved.

In the other scriptures with Samaria, they were water baptized and not given the Holy Spirit, they had merely been baptized in the name and it was of no effect because they did not receive the Holy Spirit.

Then after being baptized in the name of in v.6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Right.

 

[turbosixx]

Even Paul says John told you to believe in the one who comes after him.

Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

What did John teach about Jesus? Is that enough to be a Christian?