ECT Mid Acts Dispensation salvation #1 salvation #2

[way 2 go]

salvation to the world by Christ death & resurrection (proselyte Jew)
Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Israel rejected Jesus
Jesus cast away Israel turned to the gentiles
Act 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.

now Holy spirit given before water baptism
Act 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.


salvation to the world by Israels rejection of their messiah
& Christ death & resurrection (apart from the Jews)
Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

salvation to the world by Christ death & resurrection (proselyte Jew)
Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Those who are baptized with water are already saved when they believe the gospel so submitting to the rite of water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).​

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved.

All those who believe will inherit everlasting love and will not perish:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[way 2 go]

baptism was required
Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

now its one baptism of the spirit
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

[Jerry Shugart]

baptism was required
Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Not required for salvation. I have already explained Mark 16:16. And here is truth of how all men are saved:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[way 2 go]

Not required for salvation. I have already explained Mark 16:16. And here is truth of how all men are saved:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

before he said that

he said this
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

before he said that

he said this
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Yes, and He was speaking symbolically, with the "water" mean the "word" as it is used here:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word" (Eph.5:26).​

So we are born again and receive life by the word and the Spirit.

The Lord Jesus said this to the Jews who lived under the law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Now that I have addressed this verse which you quoted, please give me your interpretation of John 3:16.

 

[OCTOBER23]

WHY DON'T WE PROPHECY WHEN WE GET BAPTIZED ?????????

That is what I would like to know.

 

[meshak]

WHY DON'T WE PROPHECY WHEN WE GET BAPTIZED ?????????

That is what I would like to know.

Are you talking about speaking in tongues?

all necessary prophesy is done.

It's all in the Scripture.

 

[way 2 go]

Yes, and He was speaking symbolically, with the "water" mean the "word" as it is used here:Eph.5:26

:nono:

Now that I have addressed this verse which you quoted, please give me your interpretation of John 3:16.

he is explaining what he has to do so people can be saved

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water but instead He is describing those who will be saved... Mt.19:29

nice doublespeak

those who will be saved are those that believe and are baptized
according to this verse
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

 

[Jerry Shugart]

those who will be saved are those that believe and are baptized according to this verse
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

I will answer this verse and then in return I will ask you to answer one of mine:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).​

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. And that is also the case at Mark 16:16.

We do know that before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved.

Now that I have explained the true meaning of Mark 16:16 it is your turn to answer my verse. If works were required for salvation for the Jews who lived under the Law then why do we read this?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

These words say that "whosoever" believeth in Him have everlasting life. That eliminates the idea that those who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.

 

[turbosixx]

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved.

If Jesus is "merely describing many who will be saved", why did/would these people he is speaking of forsake their families?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If Jesus is "merely describing many who will be saved", why did/would these people he is speaking of forsake their families?

Some of the families were very much against any of their sons or daughters following what was called the "sect of the Nazarenes." So in order to continue being the disciples of Christ in some cases it would be necessary for them to forsake those interferring with their religious beliefs.

Are you saying that ALL believers were to forsake their families, and that was a requirement for salvation?

 

[turbosixx]

Are you saying that ALL believers were to forsake their families, and that was a requirement for salvation?

Not at all.

Some of the families were very much against any of their sons or daughters following what was called the "sect of the Nazarenes." So in order to continue being the disciples of Christ in some cases it would be necessary for them to forsake those interferring with their religious beliefs.

I agree, it was necessary for Jesus' name sake. We can not put anything or anyone above Christ. Matt. 10:37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me" So for a select few, forsaking family does become a requirement for salvation.

Jesus taught the apostles how to make disciples Matt. 28:19" Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," This is a requirement for all disciples.

Considering Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16, can someone be a Christian and not have been baptized?

 

[way 2 go]

Now that I have explained the true meaning of Mark 16:16 it is your turn to answer my verse. If works were required for salvation for the Jews who lived under the Law then why do we read this?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

These words say that "whosoever" believeth in Him have everlasting life. That eliminates the idea that those who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.

he is explaining what he has to do so people can be saved

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

I will answer this verse and then in return I will ask you to answer one of mine:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).​

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

this is criteria in order to get saved
setting forth of a standard operating procedure

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved.

Mat 19:27 Then Peter said in reply, "See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?"

it is an answer to Peter who was saved.

try to quote related verses please

And that is also the case at Mark 16:16.

not even close

We do know that before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

standard operating procedure
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
the eunuch believed and was baptized

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

for example:
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved.

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life
because he followed standard operating procedure
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
the eunuch believed and was baptized

 

[way 2 go]

Considering Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16, can someone be a Christian and not have been baptized?

back before Israel was cast away water baptism was a requirement .

today
now its one baptism of the spirit
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Considering Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16, can someone be a Christian and not have been baptized?

You are stuck in the past dispensation. In this dispensation there is but "one" baptism (Eph.4:5) and this is it:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

he is explaining what he has to do so people can be saved.

How does the verse say that people can receive everlasting life?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Whosoever believes has everlasting life. The believing Jews living under the Law cannot be excluded from the category "whosoever" but that is exactly what you do.

Besides, what issaid at John 3:16 matches the Lord Jesus words here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since the Jews who believed received eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

this is criteria in order to get saved
setting forth of a standard operating procedure

Your understanding of that verse contradicts what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24. As I said, Mark 16:16 is merely describing those who will be saved.

standard operating procedure
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
the eunuch believed and was baptized

He was born of God before he was baptized with water.

Here we can see the words of the Lord Jesus to a woman who lived under the Law and He makes it plain that it was her faith that saved her:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

According to your mistaken ideas she could not be saved by faith because the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.

 

[way 2 go]

How does the verse say that people can receive everlasting life?

it says what Jesus has to do so people believing in him
him may have eternal life not what people believing in him have to do

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

with no other criteria even demons are saved because they believe

Jas_2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
that leaves demons out

 

[turbosixx]

You are stuck in the past dispensation. In this dispensation there is but "one" baptism (Eph.4:5) and this is it:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

I don't understand, how is there is another dispensation after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Please explain.

Jesus said preach the gospel to every nation and every creature. Isn't that everyone, not just the Jews?

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[way 2 go]

I don't understand, how is there is another dispensation after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Please explain.

:think: hadn't salvation already come to the gentiles

through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles

Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

we are not saved by becoming a proselyte as was the original plan