And that is why your point belongs in a different topic.
Maunday Thursday
- Thread starter rstrats
- Start date
You should be more concerned with truth, rstrats.
Not made up celebrations based off of incorrect interpretations of the Bible.
Oh, I am JR. I would like to learn the truth with regard to when the Lord's Supper took place - at the beginning of the calendar day or during the afternoon of the calendar day.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Maundy Thursday uses our nomenclature, our timeline. Dusk, sundown, is still called the same day until midnight, so the day we call Thursday turns into Thursday evening, not Friday evening.
By your reasoning it happened on Friday evening, but by our convention it was Thursday night.
I understand you. What I don't understand is why you want to observe the goings on of the first century using the nomenclature - as you call it - of during the present time instead of the nomenclature during the time of when they actually happened.
But which Thursday night of Thursday - the first night of Thursday or the second night of Thursday?
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
We formally recognize days as starting at midnight, we practically consider them to start at dawn. The ancient Levant practically considered them to start at dusk.
So while what they would say is the beginning of Monday, at dusk following Sunday's daytime, we would call that still Sunday.
That's Palm Sunday, and for the same reason, that's why Maundy Thursday is Thursday and not Maundy Friday. Also it's not Palm Monday.
We celebrate Palm Sunday during the daytime on Sunday, and then the event we commemorate actually occurred later that evening, which is according to the ancient Levant the start of the first half of Monday, but for us under our convention, it's still Sunday.
"Sunday night" for us, was 10 Nisan in the ancient Levant. So therefore "Thursday night" was 14 Nisan, and 14 Nisan is Passover. 15 Nisan that year was not only the first day of Unleavened Bread, but also a standard weekly Sabbath, a Saturday, and then, per Leviticus 23:11, came First Fruits, on Sunday.
So that puts Sunday on 16 Nisan, the third day, counting 14 Nisan as day one (and Jesus was taken down from the cross and buried before it got dark), 15 Nisan as day two, and 16 Nisan as the third day.
So while what they would say is the beginning of Monday, at dusk following Sunday's daytime, we would call that still Sunday.
That's Palm Sunday, and for the same reason, that's why Maundy Thursday is Thursday and not Maundy Friday. Also it's not Palm Monday.
We celebrate Palm Sunday during the daytime on Sunday, and then the event we commemorate actually occurred later that evening, which is according to the ancient Levant the start of the first half of Monday, but for us under our convention, it's still Sunday.
"Sunday night" for us, was 10 Nisan in the ancient Levant. So therefore "Thursday night" was 14 Nisan, and 14 Nisan is Passover. 15 Nisan that year was not only the first day of Unleavened Bread, but also a standard weekly Sabbath, a Saturday, and then, per Leviticus 23:11, came First Fruits, on Sunday.
So that puts Sunday on 16 Nisan, the third day, counting 14 Nisan as day one (and Jesus was taken down from the cross and buried before it got dark), 15 Nisan as day two, and 16 Nisan as the third day.
Ok, since we can't agree on when a calendar day starts with regard to discussions about happenings in the first century, we'll just have to leave it at that.
However, I do have a question about one of your comments, i.e., "So that puts Sunday on 16 Nisan, the third day, counting 14 Nisan as day one (and Jesus was taken down from the cross and buried before it got dark), 15 Nisan as day two, and 16 Nisan as the third day."
How do you account for the lack of the third night with that timeframe?
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
15 Nisan along with it being the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread is also a Sabbath, because it fell on a Saturday. So it's like two holidays, the standard weekly holiday of the Sabbath, and now also, because it's 15 Nisan (and 15 Nisan can fall on any day of the week unlike the Sabbath which is always a Saturday), the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread of Matzos as well. On the same day.
How does that explain the lack of a third night?
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
So 15 Nisan being the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread and happening also to be a Sabbath is like two days in one.
I've got to say that that is the most outside of the box try at explaining the issue that I have heard. But that wouldn't work because it would add up to 4 nights.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
15 Nisan begins what we call Friday at sundown. So that night, is both the first day (because the day begins at night) of Unleavened Bread, plus the Sabbath, meaning 16 Nisan is First Fruits, which begins Saturday night. So with those two holidays happening at the same time, overlapping holidays, that might count as two nights in one. Then 16 Nisan starts Saturday night, that's three nights. Raised early in the morning, meaning still on 16 Nisan, which is First Fruits (Leviticus 23:11).
Are you using a midnight - to midnight calendar day?
You're not making any sense at all, in light of what the narrative of Scripture says.
The calendar in Leviticus 23 is based on the "evening" part of "evening and morning" being the start of the new day, meaning that the new day starts at nightfall, not at sundown, and that day doesn't end until sundown at the end of the next daylight period. Meaning "Friday night" as we call it is Saturday evening according to the calendar, because evening comes before morning on that calendar. It mirrors Genesis 1.
Unleavened Bread (15 Nisan) is a high sabbath. Firstfruits does not happen until TWO evenings and mornings have passed, on 17 Nisan, which starts at what we call "Saturday night," but which the Feasts calendar calls evening, which is the start of the new day.
If 15 Nisan is Saturday, and not Friday (Unleavened Bread is a sabbath day, regardless of what day of the week it falls upon, but if it fell on the normal sabbath day), that does not leave enough time between 3 PM on Friday, and the first day of the week (cf Matthew 28:1), specifically at dawn (roughly 6 AM) when the women came to the tomb, for Jesus to have been in the tomb for three days and three nights (cf Matthew 12:40), no matter how you try to frame it.
Also, Firstfruits is the first day after the sabbath, but not necessarily Unleavened Bread, but it kicks off the Feast of Weeks, and there are ALWAYS 50 days after the sabbath, 7 normal sabbaths (49 days), with the 50th day being the final day of the feast of Weeks, and ALWAYS the first day of the week, because it's always the first day after a normal sabbath.
Let me list out a few points that prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that 15 Nisan was not on a Saturday, that Unleavened Bread was on Friday, and thus Christ was crucified on a Thursday (I got some help from ChatGPT for this, so pardon any weird formatting):
| 1. The women bought spices on the same day Jesus was buried, before observing at least one Sabbath. - Mark 16:1 – "When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint Him." - Luke 23:55-56 – "The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment." - This means: - They purchased and prepared the spices shortly after Jesus was buried on Passover (14 Nisan). - Then, they observed a Sabbath (15 Nisan, Unleavened Bread). 2. 14 Nisan is Passover, regardless of what day it falls upon. - Leviticus 23:5 – "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the Lord's Passover." - Jesus was crucified on 14 Nisan (Passover), not Unleavened Bread. 3. 15 Nisan is the first day of Unleavened Bread and is always a High Sabbath. - Leviticus 23:6-7 – "On the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread... On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no ordinary work." - This means 15 Nisan is always a no-work Sabbath (High Sabbath). 4. Firstfruits is always the first day after a Sabbath. - Leviticus 23:10-11 – "You shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits... On the day after the Sabbath, the priest shall wave it." - Since Jesus rose on the first day of the week (Sunday, Nisan 17), He fulfilled Firstfruits exactly. 5. Jesus said He would be in the grave for three days and three nights. - Matthew 12:40 – "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." - This must be taken literally, meaning three full days and nights must be accounted for. 6. Jesus was crucified at around 9 AM on Passover (14 Nisan) and was dead by about 3 PM the same day. - Mark 15:25 – "It was the third hour when they crucified Him." (9 AM Jewish time) - Mark 15:33-37 – "At the ninth hour, Jesus cried out ... and breathed His last." (3 PM Jewish time) - John 19:31 – "Because it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." - He was taken down before sundown and buried before the High Sabbath (15 Nisan) began. 7. In the Greek texts, the plural "Sabbaton" is used in several key verses, indicating there were multiple Sabbath days. - Matthew 28:1 (Greek text) – Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων (*Opse de sabbatōn*) – "After the Sabbaths (plural), at dawn on the first day of the week..." - The plural "Sabbaths" confirms two separate Sabbaths: 1. Friday (15 Nisan) – High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread. 2. Saturday (16 Nisan) – Weekly Sabbath. - If there were only one Sabbath (Saturday), Matthew would have used the singular form. - Mark 16:1, 2; Luke 24:1 also use the plural word. Finalized Chronological Timeline (Without Contradictions)
What This Resolves:  Three days and three nights are fully accounted for (Thursday night → Sunday morning). The plural "Sabbaths" in Matthew 28:1 is explained (High Sabbath Friday, Weekly Sabbath Saturday). The women's timeline makes sense (they bought spices after burial, then rested). Firstfruits is correctly fulfilled on Sunday, Nisan 17, aligning with Jesus' resurrection. Final Conclusion: - This timeline matches all Biblical evidence, including: - The women buying spices before the Sabbath (Mark 16:1). - The two Sabbaths (Matthew 28:1, Greek plural Sabbaton). - The three days and three nights prophecy (Matthew 12:40). - The Passover-Firstfruits fulfillment (Leviticus 23:10-11, 1 Corinthians 15:20). - If 15 Nisan was Saturday and 16 Nisan was Firstfruits (Sunday), the timeline would break. - This confirms that Nisan 15 was Friday and Nisan 17 (Firstfruits) was Sunday. |