Martin Luther Comments on Free Will

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Hi , AMR , and how were you saved

Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

In other words, my inability to submit to God and do good was total (Romans 8:7-8; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). My rebellion was wholly deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28; 13:49-50; 18:8-9; 25:46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).

At the age of fourteen, I had heard about a local Baptist tent revival hosted by one Rev. Walter St. Claire in Kingsport, Tennessee. I was very curious about what went on at these revivals, so I hitchhiked to the meetings each night and to see Rev. St. Claire bring down fire and brimstone among those in attendance. Each night when I got home I would open my Bible to learn more about what I had heard. The things I had heard were hard sayings, "faith alone", "grace alone", "propitiation". In the days of no internet, all I had was my Grandmother's huge family Bible, so I would turn its pages hoping to understand some small part of what I had heard earlier that evening.

On the fourth of the five nights Rev. St. Claire was in town I returned home, again studying what I had heard. On this night, what I was reading from that evening's sermon, "Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand..." (Matthew 26:45), seemed to jump off the page. Yes! I was like the sleeping disciples, who had become so "comfortable" with the physical Lord they had been walking with, that I did not grasp Who Jesus really was and why He was sent by God. Now no tears came, no crying out for mercy, but only the washing over me a sense of tremendous peace as I prayed for God to grant someone unworthy like me His saving grace. That regenerative moment in my life set me on a journey in my walk of faith that still continues.

On that night, for God's own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen personal merit), God took the initiative according to His eternal decree and plan for realization of His decree. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief in the Good News that was preached (i.e., the ordinary means of regeneration), an ability I did not possess beforehand. My ability to believe, previously lost to all Adam's progeny with his fall in the Garden, was such that I could not be inclined other than to believe. Indeed, as but and undeserving, repentant sinner, at the moment of my "re-birth" (regeneration) the greatest inclinations of my free will were the laying hold of the righteousness of Christ's works— His active and passive obedience, on my and all those on behalf of whom He came to actually (not possibly) redeem.

My new principle of life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from my new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes its fruitfaith—in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the efficacious regenerative grace of the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able and thusly, inclined to obey in faith.

I do not forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf and for others of whom Jesus came to render their salvation to actually deliver (not possibly deliver) them from the curse of the law, and from the power of sin.

In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause, which belongs to Christ alone, of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25), for I will never escape the noetic effects of sin until coming into my glory.

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, my Lord is the author of my faith hence, He is also the finisher (Heb. 12:2) such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR
 
Last edited:

Bright Raven

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One has to be saved in order to call upon the name of the Lord ! That is an act of Faith, of believing Rom 10:14

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Those in the flesh cannot believe because , that pleases God Heb 11:6, and those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So quite frankly Rom 10:13 is not anyone unregenerated and still in the flesh !:nono:

I thought you said that believing was a work. Verse 14 says that you have to believe.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

For His own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen merit), God took the initiative. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief, an ability I did not possess beforehand.

My new life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from the new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able to obey in faith.

I never forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf. In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25).

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, God is the author of my faith, hence, He is also the finisher such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR


HOGWASH!

No one is born again or becomes a Christian without hearing and believing the Gospel.

On the day of Pentecost when the Gospel first came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit they received Peter's Gospel and were born again, Acts 2:38-41.

The Holy Spirit is only given to those who hear and believe the Gospel, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something or because you became something) or was it by the hearing of faith" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.

How can you go on and on about being saved and never mention the Gospel or what Christ did to save you? If you had the Holy Spirit which you don't, you would glorify Christ with the Gospel.

"For he shall not speak of himself. He shall glorify me" John 16:13, 14. All you talk about is yourself and your Calvinist doctrine.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
I thought you said that believing was a work. Verse 14 says that you have to believe.


They must first be Born of the Spirit to believe on Christ.

Faith / belief is a Fruit Gal. 5:22 KJV of the Spirit given in the New Birth.

Only then can they do good works and please God,
because they are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit Rom. 8:9.

~~~~~
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

For His own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen merit), God took the initiative. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief, an ability I did not possess beforehand.

My new life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from the new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able to obey in faith.

I never forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf. In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25).

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, God is the author of my faith, hence, He is also the finisher such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR

How can one for whom Christ died for, and propitated God's wrath for, ever be under God's wrath ? That is a contradiction !
 

Nanja

Well-known member
HOGWASH!

No one is born again or becomes a Christian without hearing and believing the Gospel.

False teaching!

Before a person can hear and believe the Gospel, which is Spiritual,
he must first be made Spiritually alive; Born of God.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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How can one for whom Christ died for, and propitated God's wrath for, ever be under God's wrath ? That is a contradiction !
Unless you are one of those "eternal justification" erroneous advocates, advocating no evangelism is needed as the elect will just be converted no matter what the church does, the Apostle Paul answers this question in Eph 2:1:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Even the elect are by nature children of wrath even as others. The elect are under the same condemnation until the application of Christ's person and work by virtue of the Holy Spirit's work, as per the Westminster Confession of Faith:

WCF 11:4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.

Until justified (fulness of time), the elect are under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" and "election is unto salvation." The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before which time (as Eph 2 makes clear) they are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

See Calvin:

Spoiler

John Calvin: Therefore all of us, who have descended from impure seed, are born infected with the contagion of sin. In fact, before we saw the light of this life we were soiled and spotted in God´s sight.

Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 1, ed. John T. McNeill and trans. Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book II.1.5, p. 248.

John Calvin: 10. The Elect before their call. There is no "œseed of election" The elect are gathered into Christ´s flock by a call not immediately at birth, and not all at the same time, but according as it pleases God to dispense his grace to them. But before they are gathered unto that supreme Shepherd, they wander scattered in the wilderness common to all; and they do not differ at all from others except that they are protected by God´s especial mercy from rushing headlong into the final ruin of death. If you look upon them, you will see Adam´s offspring, who savor of the common corruption of the mass. The fact that they are not carried to utter and even desperate impiety is not due to any innate goodness of theirs but because the eye of God watches over their safety and his hand is outstretched to them!

For those who imagine that some sort of seed of election was sown in them from birth itself, and that by its power they have always been inclined to piety and the fear of God, are not supported by Scriptural authority and are refuted by experience itself. They put forward a few examples by which to prove that the elect even before illumination were not strangers to religion: Paul lived a blameless life as a Pharisee [Philippians 3:5-6]; Cornelius, with alms and prayers, was acceptable to God [Acts 10:2], and the like, if any. As for Paul, we grant them their point; in Cornelius, we say they are deceived. For it appears that he was then already enlightened and regenerated, so that he lacked nothing but a clear revelation of the gospel. But what will they wring out of these few examples? That all the elect are always endowed with the spirit of piety? No more than if someone"”by showing the uprightness of Aristides, Socrates, Xenocrates, Scipio, Curius, Camillus, and others"”infers from it that all who are forsaken in the darkness of idolatry were earnest seekers of holiness and purity. Indeed, Scripture openly disclaims them in more than one place.

This state before regeneration described by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians shows no grain of this seed. "œYou were dead," he says, "œthrough the trespasses and sins in which you... walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the air, who is now at work in his disobedient sons. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of the flesh and of the mind. So we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest." [Ephesians 2:1-3, abbr.] Again: "œRemember that... you were once without hope, and lacking God in the world." [Ephesians 2:12 p.] Likewise: You were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light." [Ephesians 5:8-9.]

But they would perhaps like this to be referred to ignorance of the true God in which, as they do not deny, the elect are held before they are called. Yet this would be shameless calumny, since he draws the inference that they ought no longer to lie [Ephesians 4:25] or steal [Ephesians 4:28]. But what answer will they make to the other passages? Such as that in the letter to the Corinthians, where, after declaring that "œneither fornicators nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor the greedy, will inherit the Kingdom of God" [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], he immediately adds that they were guilty of those very transgressions before they knew Christ but are now washed with his blood and freed by the Spirit [1 Corinthians 9:11]. Likewise, another passage, in the letter to the Romans: "œJust as you... yielded your members as slaves to impurity and to greater iniquity upon iniquity, so now yield your members in bondage to righteousness" [1 Corinthians 6:19, cf. Vg.]. "œFor what fruit did you get from those things at which you now rightly blush?" [1 Corinthians 6:21 p.].

Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 2, ed. John T. McNeill and trans. Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book III.24.10, pp. 976-977.


B57, I know you are an odd duck, given to extreme hyper-Calvinism, but the Reformed tradition stands against you. I say this only to note that your vocal views, while sometimes accurate, are more often beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. Have you spoken with your Pastor about your views? What was his counsel?

AMR
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
They must first be Born of the Spirit to believe on Christ.

Faith / belief is a Fruit Gal. 5:22 KJV of the Spirit given in the New Birth.

Only then can they do good works and please God,
because they are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit Rom. 8:9.

~~~~~


You cannot be born again without hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Unless you are one of those "eternal justification" erroneous advocates, the Apostle Paul answers this question in Eph 2:1:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Even the elect are by nature children of wrath even as others. The elect are under the same condemnation until the application of Christ's person and work by virtue of the Holy Spirit's work, as per the Westminster Confession of Faith:

WCF 11:4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.

Until justified, the elect are under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" and "election is unto salvation." The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before which time (as Eph 2 makes clear) they are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

See Calvin:

Spoiler

John Calvin: Therefore all of us, who have descended from impure seed, are born infected with the contagion of sin. In fact, before we saw the light of this life we were soiled and spotted in God´s sight. Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 1, ed. John T. McNeill and trans.
Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book II.1.5, p. 248.

John Calvin: 10. The Elect before their call. There is no "œseed of election" The elect are gathered into Christ´s flock by a call not immediately at birth, and not all at the same time, but according as it pleases God to dispense his grace to them. But before they are gathered unto that supreme Shepherd, they wander scattered in the wilderness common to all; and they do not differ at all from others except that they are protected by God´s especial mercy from rushing headlong into the final ruin of death. If you look upon them, you will see Adam´s offspring, who savor of the common corruption of the mass. The fact that they are not carried to utter and even desperate impiety is not due to any innate goodness of theirs but because the eye of God watches over their safety and his hand is outstretched to them!

For those who imagine that some sort of seed of election was sown in them from birth itself, and that by its power they have always been inclined to piety and the fear of God, are not supported by Scriptural authority and are refuted by experience itself. They put forward a few examples by which to prove that the elect even before illumination were not strangers to religion: Paul lived a blameless life as a Pharisee [Philippians 3:5-6]; Cornelius, with alms and prayers, was acceptable to God [Acts 10:2], and the like, if any. As for Paul, we grant them their point; in Cornelius, we say they are deceived. For it appears that he was then already enlightened and regenerated, so that he lacked nothing but a clear revelation of the gospel. But what will they wring out of these few examples? That all the elect are always endowed with the spirit of piety? No more than if someone"”by showing the uprightness of Aristides, Socrates, Xenocrates, Scipio, Curius, Camillus, and others"”infers from it that all who are forsaken in the darkness of idolatry were earnest seekers of holiness and purity. Indeed, Scripture openly disclaims them in more than one place.

This state before regeneration described by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians shows no grain of this seed. "œYou were dead," he says, "œthrough the trespasses and sins in which you... walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the air, who is now at work in his disobedient sons. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of the flesh and of the mind. So we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest." [Ephesians 2:1-3, abbr.] Again: "œRemember that... you were once without hope, and lacking God in the world." [Ephesians 2:12 p.] Likewise: You were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light." [Ephesians 5:8-9.]

But they would perhaps like this to be referred to ignorance of the true God in which, as they do not deny, the elect are held before they are called. Yet this would be shameless calumny, since he draws the inference that they ought no longer to lie [Ephesians 4:25] or steal [Ephesians 4:28]. But what answer will they make to the other passages? Such as that in the letter to the Corinthians, where, after declaring that "œneither fornicators nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor the greedy, will inherit the Kingdom of God" [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], he immediately adds that they were guilty of those very transgressions before they knew Christ but are now washed with his blood and freed by the Spirit [1 Corinthians 9:11]. Likewise, another passage, in the letter to the Romans: "œJust as you... yielded your members as slaves to impurity and to greater iniquity upon iniquity, so now yield your members in bondage to righteousness" [1 Corinthians 6:19, cf. Vg.]. "œFor what fruit did you get from those things at which you now rightly blush?" [1 Corinthians 6:21 p.]. Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 2, ed. John T. McNeill and trans.
Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book III.24.10, pp. 976-977.


B57, I know you are an odd duck, given to extreme hyper-Calvinism, but the Reformed tradition stands against you. I say this only to note that your vocal views, while sometimes accurate, are more often beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. Have you spoken with your Pastor about your views? What was his counsel?

AMR

So you don't believe that Christ death alone removed the wrath of God from them that He died for ! Then you don't believe in or understand propitiation ! You make Christ death alone ineffective to appease God's wrath ! That's unbelief ! :)
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
False teaching!

Before a person can hear and believe the Gospel, which is Spiritual,
he must first be made Spiritually alive; Born of God.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~


You are not of God if you have not heard and believed the Gospel.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
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LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
So you don't believe that Christ death alone removed the wrath of God from them that He died for ! Then you don't believe in or understand propitiation ! You make Christ death alone ineffective to appease God's wrath ! That's unbelief ! :)

There is no way your post, four minutes after my own, implies you took careful time to review what I provided for your edification. I think, while you have a heart for the Lord, you are too often given over to emotional passions, losing yourself in the moment, versus the call from Holy Writ to take every word captive for the glory of God (2 Cor. 10:5).

Have you spoken with your Pastor about these matters? What was his counsel?

AMR
 

beloved57

Well-known member
There is no way your post, four minutes after my own, implies you took careful time to review what I provided for your edification. I think, while you have a heart for the Lord, you are too often given over to emotional passions, losing yourself in the moment, versus the call from Holy Writ to take every word captive for the glory of God (2 Cor. 10:5).

Have you spoken with your Pastor about these matters? What was his counsel?

AMR

You are in unbelief, you don't believe that Christ death alone propitated God's wrath for those He died for !
 

Nanja

Well-known member
You cannot be born again without hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

The "hearing of faith" in Gal. 3:2 is only for those born of the Spirit,
and does not teach that an unregenerate person can have faith that pleases God.
But first Born of God, then comes hearing. Again, the dead cannot hear!

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~
 

Nanja

Well-known member
You are not of God if you have not heard and believed the Gospel.


Only one who is Born of God / Born of the Spirit can hear God's Words:

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Have you spoken with your Pastor? What was his counsel?

AMR
Evasion, you don't believe that Christ death propitated God's wrath ! Do you know what propitated means ? Because you are falsely teaching that those who Christ already satisfied God's law and justice for, are still born under God's wrath ! :)
 

Nanja

Well-known member
I believe that The Elect of God were never under God's wrath.

They are born into this world by nature the children of wrath Eph. 2:3, in that they are naturally enslaved
to the lusts of the flesh because they are of the flesh, until such time as they are Born of the Spirit.

How can one who has been chosen In Christ Eph. 1:4-5 to have Eternal Life, one for whom
Christ was the propitiation for his sins 1 John 4:10 ever be under God's wrath? That's not possible.

Propitiation means God's Wrath has been appeased hilasmos for them!

~~~~~
 

beloved57

Well-known member
nanja

I believe that The Elect of God were never under God's wrath.

Amen, they never were !

They are born into this world by nature the children of wrath Eph. 2:3, in that they are naturally enslaved
to the lusts of the flesh because they are of the flesh, until such time as they are Born of the Spirit.

Yes, all of which means, the Elect by nature are just as worthy of wrath as sinners, like the non elect, they walk worthily of wrath like any other sinner is Pauls point !

How can one who has been chosen In Christ Eph. 1:4-5 to have Eternal Life, one for whom
Christ was the propitiation for his sins 1 John 4:10 ever be under God's wrath? That's not possible.

Exactly, along with the fact that those Christ died for, have been reconciled to God by that Death, even while they are enemies Rom 5:10 which makes it impossible to be under God's Wrath and Reconciled to God at the same time !

Propitiation means God's Wrath has been appeased hilasmos for them!

Yes, God's Wrath for them has been drank dry, God's wrath is totally appeased regarding them, for Christ's Sake ! To say otherwise is total disrespect and belittlement of the Effects of Christ's Death to the Father !
 
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