Male-circumcision saves MILLIONS of lives!

beameup

New member
Bs"d
You don't worship God, you worship a carpenter who died 2000 years ago:
Sorry, no images here. Are you suggesting that there were photographers back in the 1st century? :rotfl:

Who was Joshua worshipping?
And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
- Joshua 5:13-14
 

Elia

Well-known member
Sorry, no images here. Are you suggesting that there were photographers back in the 1st century? :rotfl:

Bs"d

Look on the page before this one, post #58, and there you see an image of a man, of whom Christians think he is is God.

"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19

Who was Joshua worshipping?
And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
- Joshua 5:13-14

Joshua didn't think the angel was God, he was not an idol worshipper.

You think a carpenter that died 2000 year ago was God, and you worship him, therefore you are an idol worshipper.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d
Look on the page before this one, post #58, and there you see an image of a man, of whom Christians think he is is God.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you actually believe that there were photographers back in the 1st century. :kookoo:

Joshua didn't think the angel was God, he was not an idol worshipper.
The text is clear, Joshua worshipped a MAN and called him "my lord".
Now, would you like some more scripture on the "malak elohim"?


BTW, Isn't it getting a bit :burnlib: here?
 

Elia

Well-known member
Sorry, no images here. Are you suggesting that there were photographers back in the 1st century? :rotfl:

Bs"d

Look on the page before this one, post #58, and there you see an image of a man, of whom Christians think he is is God.

"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19

Who was Joshua worshipping?
And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
- Joshua 5:13-14

Joshua didn't think the angel was God, he was not an idol worshipper.

You think a carpenter that died 2000 year ago was God, and you worship him, therefore you are an idol worshipper.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

Look on the page before this one, post #58, and there you see an image of a man, of whom Christians think he is is God.

I've seen "images" of Moses. :mock: Often he looks like Charlton Heston.

What did God's feet look like to Moses and the 70 elders?
Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. - Exodus 24:9-11
Was there a photographer present?
 

Elia

Well-known member
I've seen "images" of Moses. :mock: Often he looks like Charlton Heston.

What did God's feet look like to Moses and the 70 elders?
Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. - Exodus 24:9-11
Was there a photographer present?

"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19
 

beameup

New member
"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire.

OK, YHWH "spoke" to Moses out of the bush on THAT occasion. hint: there were 2 entities present in the bush
Then following the Exodus, God physically appeared to Moses, and later to Aaron the seventy elders.

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend - Exodus 33:11a

Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
But there were no photographers present.
 

Elia

Well-known member
OK, YHWH "spoke" to Moses out of the bush on THAT occasion. hint: there were 2 entities present in the bush
Then following the Exodus, God physically appeared to Moses, and later to Aaron the seventy elders.

Bs"d

Where does it say that God physically appeared to them?

I think they got a vision. No "physical appearance".

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend - Exodus 33:11a

God spoke "face to face" with Moses, but: "But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And Y-H-W-H said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.” Ex 33

So God spoke face to face with Moses, but Moses never saw his face.

So we shouldn't take that "face to face" too literal.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

Where does it say that God physically appeared to them?

I think they got a vision. No "physical appearance".



God spoke "face to face" with Moses, but: "But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And Y-H-W-H said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.” Ex 33

So God spoke face to face with Moses, but Moses never saw his face.

So we shouldn't take that "face to face" too literal.

God, from the Tanakh, appears to have hands, fingers, arms, feet, a "back", a mouth, etc.
He appeared to Joshua as a MAN - the "Captain of the LORD's host" - and Joshua fell on his face and WORSHIPPED.
Perhaps this demonstrates his ability to "modify" himself in order to appear to man and communicate with him.


Your "image" of God is no different than the Muslim's "image" of Allah.
A "singularity" that is "above it all" and "unknowable", and is a bit of a "trickster".
 

Elia

Well-known member
God, from the Tanakh, appears to have hands, fingers, arms, feet, a "back", a mouth, etc.


Bs"d

Still God is not a man, God is a spirit:

"God is not human, that he should lie" Num 23:19

"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.” 1 Samuel 15:29

"For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you." Hosea 11:9

He appeared to Joshua as a MAN - the "Captain of the LORD's host" - and Joshua fell on his face and WORSHIPPED.

No He did not:

"13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”

14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of Y-H-W-H I have now come.”

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my lord say to His servant?”

15 Then the Commander of the Y-H-W-H’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so."

As everyone can see, this is not God appearing to Joshua, but an angel of God appearing to him.

And everyone who can read Hebrew knows that Joshua didn't worship the angel who was the commander of God's legions, but he BOWED DOWN to him. In the Hebrew: "weyistachu".

That is here wrongly translated as "worship", because worshipping is something you do to a deity, and the angel was no deity.

Exact the same word in exactly the same form we see in Gen 23:12; "Then Abraham bowed himself down before the people of the land;"

You think Abraham was worshipping the people of the land?

"Then Israel saw Joseph’s sons, and said, “Who are these?”
9 And Joseph said to his father, “They are my sons, whom God has given me in this place.”
And he said, “Please bring them to me, and I will bless them.” 10 Now the eyes of Israel were dim with age, so that he could not see. Then Joseph brought them near him, and he kissed them and embraced them. 11 And Israel said to Joseph, “I had not thought to see your face; but in fact, God has also shown me your offspring!”
12 So Joseph brought them from beside his knees, and he bowed down with his face to the earth."
Gen 48

Here we see the exact same word, "weyistachu", when Joseph bows down before his father Israel. Do you think Joseph was worshipping his father as a god?
Of course not!

"So Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, bowed down, and kissed him." Ex 18:7

Here we see the exact same word, "weyistachu", when Moses bows down before his father in law. And again, Moses is not worshipping his father in law. He doesn't think he is God.

So in Joshua 5 we are dealing with a wrong translation of the word ""weyistachu", which means "he bowed down". Joshua bowed down for the angel, but the didn't worship him, and he didn't think he was God.

I can give you many more examples like these, but this will suffice. As usual you are led astray because of faulty translations.

And yes, Joshua called the angel "my lord". The word "lord" is without a capital, Hebrew has no capitals. But that doesn't stop for instance the NKJV to write "Lord" with a capital L, but that is made up by the translators, because Hebrew has no capitals.

We can compare that to Jacob, calling his brother Esau "my lord":

"Then Esau said, “What do you mean by all this company which I met?” And he said, “These are to find favor in the sight of my lord.”
Gen 33:8

Exact the same word "my lord". But he didn't think his brother was God.

Here we have Rachel speaking to her father Laban: "And she said to her father, “Let it not displease my lord that I cannot rise before you, for the manner of women is with me.”

Exact the same word "my lord".

Rachal said to Eliezer, the servant of Abraham: "So she said, “Drink, my lord.” Gen 24:18, but she didn't think he was God.

Also here many more examples can be brought, but it is already very clear that calling somebody "my lord" does not mean that you think he is God.

Your "image" of God is no different than the Muslim's "image" of Allah.


I don't have an image of God:

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any image of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, Y-H-W-H your God, am a jealous God"
Ex 20

The only ones who transgress this commandments are the Christians, who make images of God, and carved images, and they bow down to them.

For an example of and image of a carpenter who died 2000 years ago, whom the Christians worship as God, look in post #58 of this thread.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Bs"d

#AIDS2016: Medical male circumcision saves millions in lives and costs


http://bhekisisa.org/article/2016-0...ircumcision-saves-millions-in-lives-and-costs

21 Jul 2016 13:42Aaron Motsoaledi, Molotsi Monyamane, Simon Zwane

Statistics show that voluntary male circumcision is a crucial weapon in the fight to control HIV.

Medical male circumcisions performed between 2008 and 2015 in South Africa will save more than $790-million in treatment costs by 2030, scientists predict.

A new mathematical model, just described in the open access journal Plos One, projects that these voluntary, safe circumcisions performed on males in South Africa will avert 218 000 HIV infections by 2030.

These forecasts would have astonished the thousands of delegates who descended on Durban for the International Aids Conference 16 years ago. Many consider the 2000 conference, held for the first time in Africa, to have been a watershed event.

Scientists then debated what to do about a puzzling but potentially important finding about Aids: that circumcised men are much less likely to become infected than those who are uncircumcised. Twenty years of data had suggested a strong link between circumcision status and HIV sero-status in men, but voluntary medical male circumcision (VMMC) was not yet part of the HIV prevention toolkit.

Then three randomised controlled trials conducted from 2005 to 2007 in South Africa, Kenya and Uganda found a compelling 60% protective effect against HIV for men who became circumcised. The evidence was irrefutable. In March 2007, UNAids and the World Health Organisation (WHO) moved rapidly to recommend scaling up VMMC in settings with high HIV infection and low male circumcision levels in East and Southern Africa.

As the world reconvenes in Durban for the International Aids Conference 2016, more than 12-million males in 14 priority countries in East and Southern Africa have come forward for safe, voluntary male circumcision, according to the WHO.

The new mathematical model, called DMPPT 2.1, projects that the circumcisions performed up to the end of 2015 in these countries will avert more than 450 000 new HIV infections by 2030. South Africa is set to avert the greatest number of infections among all the countries.

If countries continue to scale up VMMC and reach 80% circumcision coverage among 10- to 29-year-olds by 2020, an additional 470 000 HIV infections will be prevented by 2030. This includes 170 000 in South Africa alone.

Few people could have imagined just eight years ago that a surgical procedure could be designed, funded, implemented and scaled up to this magnitude and effect in such a short period of time. This would not have been possible without the strong leadership of national governments with support from Pepfar (the United States President's Emergency Plan for Aids Relief), the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Unicef, the WHO and UNAids and their partners.

Today, in the new era of treatment for all, male circumcision remains critical for epidemic control and is an important part of the UNAids prevention strategy.

VMMC programmes have increased HIV testing uptake among men who otherwise would not have been tested. It has also linked those found HIV positive to care and treatment. The offer of circumcision has opened new HIV treatment and prevention doors to men. Men are far less likely than women to know their HIV status and more likely to start treatment late at a more advanced stage. These linkages are critical for men and much can be learned from Lesotho's focus on making them strong through a successful model of integrated services and effective hospital communications.

Rolling out male circumcision for HIV prevention has faced challenges. A shortage of trained staff hinders service delivery. The rapid scaling up of any programme requires close attention to quality and safety of services, perhaps even more so when surgery is involved. Country programmes continue to prioritise and invest in improving the quality of service delivery to thousands of men. The decision to circumcise involves deep-seated values and beliefs that vary with cultural identity. The ministry of health in Lesotho and the department of health in South Africa are working closely with traditional leaders to encourage men to access safe medical male circumcision services and respect traditional values.

Although younger adolescents have comprised the majority of men seeking services, it has proven more difficult than anticipated to attract men above the age of 19. Swaziland has recently found that by working with private practitioners, engaging men in the workplace and reaching out to high schools and tertiary institutions, the circumcision programme is able to increase the uptake of services among the older age group, which is at higher risk for HIV and therefore stands to benefit immediately from circumcision.

Today we are celebrating the great progress that has been made, but we must also plan to maintain high levels of male circumcision coverage well into the future after initial targets are reached. Progress has been uneven across countries and even in some countries, with certain districts reaching high male circumcision coverage before others. Areas that are closer to reaching coverage targets need to start planning now for sustainability or they risk losing the gains they have made. Early planning is critical because the transition of male circumcision programme activities to sustained programming requires local stakeholder design, management and funding. Lesotho showed forethought in starting to consider sustainability from the inception of its circumcision programme.

As the Aids financing landscape changes, countries have to commit to moving forward from donor funding to domestic funding. South Africa's department of health has already made a strong financial commitment to its medical male circumcision programme as a key component of its HIV prevention effort, and other countries in the region must step up and do the same. We must ensure that the high male circumcision coverage we have all worked so hard to achieve continues to yield health benefits long into the future.

Aaron Motsoaledi is South Africa's health minister, Molotsi Monyamane is Lesotho's health minister and Simon Zwane is Swaziland's principal secretary of health.
 
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