No, that's what 'some' Christian churches believe...not all.
Male-circumcision saves MILLIONS of lives!
- Thread starter Elia
- Start date
No, that's what 'some' Christian churches believe...not all.
Not all professing Christians believe that nonsense.
The 'person' to whom Paul is referring is a literal physical Jew and he is saying that that Jewish person is a 'real' Jew when his heart is changed.
Paul never uses the term 'Jew' to refer to a Gentile.
A Gentile does not become a Jew when his heart is changed.
Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles.
Israel is ethnic/national Israel and the Body of Christ/Church is a new creation, composed of people from all nations.
beameup
New member
Circumcision of the heart saves and has saved MILLIONS from the fires of Hell.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Idolatry, like worshipping a carpenter who lived 2000 years ago in stead of the one and only God Y-H-W-H who is one, has condemned millions to the fires of hell.
"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Ex 20:1+2
beameup
New member
You'll recognize Messiah when you see him... He has holes in his hands.
Your sin put those holes there.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Jesus breaks the empires into pieces. The stone that was cut out of mountains without hands.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Jesus breaks the empires into pieces. The stone that was cut out of mountains without hands.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
When the messiah comes I'll recognize him because he'll fulfil the messianic prophecies, something in which all self proclaimed messiahs failed.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
I don't care about "breaking empires into pieces", I care that somebody who claims to be the messiah that he fulfils the messianic prophecies, but so far all of 'm failed in that one.
beameup
New member
And just what would that be?
PS: I've posted a few dozen prophecies on the subject.
Is this the one you are waiting for?
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do.
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD is our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
.
Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
And here we have yet another messianic prophecy NOT fulfilled by the Christian messiah.
Was him ever given dominion? Glory? A kingdom?
No. He didn't get any further than a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Did all the people, nations, and languages serve him?
Of course not.
All this is also NOT fulfilled by that carpenter.
Do we need any more proof he wasn't the messiah?
beameup
New member
Enough about "the carpenter".
From you we have learned that there have already been three "messiahs".
Perhaps you wouldn't recognize the "real Messiah" if he showed up on your doorstep? :dizzy:
Or perhaps there is "no hope for Israel" and there won't be a REAL Messiah?
BTW, I've posted quotes from Maimonides and other Jewish sages concerning Messiah.
I guess your "rabbis" are not familiar with such things...
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Of course there have been many more than three messiahs.
Your problem is that you don't know what a messiah is.
No problem, I'll explain this you:
Messiah comes from the Hebrew word 'meshiach' which means 'anointed one' It was the custom to anoint kings with oil before they came to power. There were already many anointed kings in Jewish history. Read for instance I Samuel 9:27 to10:1; Here Saul is anointed by Samuel the prophet. And thereby he became a messiah, an anointed one, See Samuel 11:13 up to 12:3: Here in verse 3 king Saul is called G.ds anointed, in the Hebrew 'meshiach'. So also king Saul was a messiah. Look in I Samuel 16:12-13, here the prophet Samuel anoints David, the Hebrew verb for anointing is 'mashach', and he becomes an anointed one, as we can read in II Samuel 23:1; "David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (in the Hebrew 'meshiach') of the G.d of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said; …"
I Kings 1:39; "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Hebrew verb 'mashach') Solomon. And they blew the trumpet, and all the people said; G.d save king Solomon." Also Solomon was an anointed one, or messiah: II Chronicles 6:42, here king Solomon prays: "O Lord turn not away the face of thine anointed, …" In the Hebrew: 'meshiach'.
So now we know what is a messiah: An anointed king. And now we can start to figure out who is the messiah from Daniel 9:25
For one thing; we know now who could not have been the messiah from Daniel 9: Jesus. He never was anointed as king by a priest and/or prophet, and he never was a king, in other words: He never was a messiah. Therefore he is disqualified to be the messiah of Daniel 9.
Maybe not. But there is one infallible way to recognize him: He who does fulfil the messianic prophecies, he is the messiah.
And from that we learn: He who claims to be the messiah, but who fails to fulfil the messianic prophecies, he is a cheat.
beameup
New member
I'm afraid you have already told us who the "real messiah" is, as you base it upon Isaiah 53.
1) Jew's are being punished by God
2) Jewish souls are being made an offering for sin
3) Jewish souls see travail
4) Jew's are "justifying many"
5) Jew's are "baring other's iniquities"
6) Jewish souls is being poured out unto death
7) Jew's are bearing the sins of many
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Yep, happens all the time. We see that all over the Tanach.
Exactly. With this distinction that everybody suffers for his or her own sin.
All the time.
Jews are justifying themselves by suffering for their own sins, and through the suffering the sin is erased.
Wrong. Jews (and non-Jews) bare their own iniquities.
Happens all the time.
Many Jews (the nation of Israel) bare the sins of many Jews. (the nation of Israel)
Israel is being punished for the sins of Israel.
That is what is going on in Isaiah 53.
For the finer details look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com
beameup
New member
YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all - 53:6b
He was cut off out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken. - 53:8b
I'm afraid that the text does not justify your conclusion
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Don't be afraid. It is very simple. "For the transgression of my people he was stricken".
Who is "my people"? That is of course ISRAEL. Who is "he" who was stricken? That is the servant of God.
Who is the servant of God?
First let's look who is not the servant of God.
NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Tanach is the messiah ever addressed as "the servant of God".
Who is? ISRAEL.
Let us now take a look about who the prophet Isaiah is really talking here. Isaiah 52:13; “Behold My servant shall deal prudently ….” The key question here is: Who is it that the prophet Isaiah calls the servant of God? We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:
Isaiah 41:8: “But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.”
Isaiah 44:1-2; “Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.”
Isaiah 44:21; “Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; O Israel thou shalt not be forgotten of me
Isaiah 45:4; “For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.”
Isaiah 48:20; “The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.”
Isaiah 49:3; “And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
The servant that Isaiah is talking about is the people of Israel.
There is a lot more like this in Isaiah, but here you can catch it in one sentence.
So back again to this text:
"For the transgression of my people he was stricken"
The "my people" = Israel. The "he" = the servant = Israel.
So what we get is: "For the transgression of Israel Israel was stricken"
Israel is punished for the sins of Israel. A simple logical concept what we find all over the Tanach.
What Christians want to make out of it, namely that God had to punish Himself and let Himself be murdered by His creatures before He could forgive them, is an illogical absurd concept what is NOWHERE to be found in the Tanach.
beameup
New member
The original text is not divided along "chapter and verse" constraints. Perhaps you should start at the BEGINNING of Isaiah's prophecy concerning messiah:
Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. - Isaiah 52:13-15
Dear Elia,
Finally, someone who sees what's going on!! That Israel has finally reached the point at which God will have rescued her and given her land back to her/the Israelis? Israel only just has that little strip of land and the Palestinians really have to live in it too, instead because of religious reasons also now, eh? It's funny all of the other fourteen Arab countries don't have to live there because it is holy. They can just visit like everyone else. Why don't the Palestinians simply go live in umpteen different other Arab states/countries? Go to Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Ethiopia, United Arab Emirates, Sudan, Qatar, Syria, Yemen, etc.??
Enough said? Israel deserves that strip of land totally. No Palestinians in the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, and not in Israel at all anymore, period. The closer the Palestinians get to Israel, the more they want to dig tunnels to get at her, just to kill the Israelis. Oh well, I'll drop it for now. But do you see what I mean?!! Only one state/country of Israel, and 14 Arab countries, or more. It is preposterous. Get bent Philistia, land of the ancient Philistines. You should realize that Palestinian, means Philistine. They just changed their names to become more accessibly accepted again. If they were still named the Philistines, the whole world would know that Israel deserves the land BACK AGAIN, for she had it before the Palestinians moved in again. God gave her that land and He specifically tells what her borders are, in detail, and also that He would give it back to her in the latter years and days, and she shall live there forever.
In God, I Trust, I Praise Thee Forevermore!!
Michael
Finally, someone who sees what's going on!! That Israel has finally reached the point at which God will have rescued her and given her land back to her/the Israelis? Israel only just has that little strip of land and the Palestinians really have to live in it too, instead because of religious reasons also now, eh? It's funny all of the other fourteen Arab countries don't have to live there because it is holy. They can just visit like everyone else. Why don't the Palestinians simply go live in umpteen different other Arab states/countries? Go to Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Ethiopia, United Arab Emirates, Sudan, Qatar, Syria, Yemen, etc.??
Enough said? Israel deserves that strip of land totally. No Palestinians in the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, and not in Israel at all anymore, period. The closer the Palestinians get to Israel, the more they want to dig tunnels to get at her, just to kill the Israelis. Oh well, I'll drop it for now. But do you see what I mean?!! Only one state/country of Israel, and 14 Arab countries, or more. It is preposterous. Get bent Philistia, land of the ancient Philistines. You should realize that Palestinian, means Philistine. They just changed their names to become more accessibly accepted again. If they were still named the Philistines, the whole world would know that Israel deserves the land BACK AGAIN, for she had it before the Palestinians moved in again. God gave her that land and He specifically tells what her borders are, in detail, and also that He would give it back to her in the latter years and days, and she shall live there forever.
In God, I Trust, I Praise Thee Forevermore!!
Michael
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